Neighbour's Garden is Making our Kitchen Wall Damp

[Gail06]

Can anyone offer any advice please? We recently moved into an old house with solid walls. It has a kitchen extension at the back, probably built in the 1920s. The left hand wall of our kitchen is our neighbour's right hand garden wall. The wall is very damp, and every time it rains a bit more plaster falls off it. The damp has moved a little into the ceiling, which also has peeling plaster. We have had several roofers look at it, and they say there's nothing wrong with the roof. A couple of masons we employed eventually found the cause of it. They said there was cracked concrete render on the outside, which was letting in and trapping water, and they suggested taking off the concrete and putting on lime render to let the wall breathe. For this we needed access to our neighbour's garden. We explained the problem to him and asked if we could have access. He reluctantly agreed (after a lot of complaining), but said it had to be finished during the week that he and his wife were away on holiday. The poor guys we employed worked in the rain to finish within the week, and they managed it. They also cleaned up very carefully, as our neighbour threatened to sue us if we wasn't happy with his garden on his return.
The real difficulty is the second cause our masons identified. Our neighbour's garden is at a slightly higher level than our kitchen floor, and so is bridging the damp proof course that was put in years ago. They said that the neighbour's patio and flower bed, which are right up against the wall, would need to be pulled away from the wall by a few inches to allow the water to drain, otherwise rising damp would be trapped and the wall would be damp for evermore. A structural surveyor has confirmed this to be right. We explained this to our neighbour, and offered to pay for any work done and any damage to his garden. He said he would change his garden over his dead body, and again threatened to sue us. (Not sure what for this time.) We have spoken to a couple of solicitors, who have advised us that in theory we could pursue him through the courts for damage to our property, but that in practice this could be lengthy and run into tens of thousands of pounds. It is a party wall, but the Party Wall Act apparently isn't clear enough on a matter like this to make it cut and dried.
One solicitor suggested tanking (damp proofing) the wall from inside instead, which wouldn't involve access to our neighbour's garden. However we live in a conservation area, so we would need to get planning permission for this. The surveyor who looked at the wall knows the local planning committee, and advised us that they would probably say no, that we would need to sort things out with our neighbour. Which would be back to litigation. Also as it is a party wall, we would need our neighbour's permission to do it! On top of this, if our neighbour decided to paint the wall with non breathable paint like masonry paint, this would damage the lime render and make the wall impermeable again, further increasing our damp problem. But apparently because it's on his side, again the only thing we could do is pursue him through the courts for damages.
Please help anyone! I'm at the end of my tether with all this. We don't want to carve up our neighbour's garden or go to court, we just want to live a peaceful life with a dry wall.

Are you sure you'd need conservation area permission to tank your kitchen? It doesn't change the appearance in any significant way so I'm surprised. I'd double check with the local authority or do it anywayif I thought it wss likely to work .

If it really is a no-go then a lengthy legal battle is your only choice. With luck, he might cave in once he saw you meant business.

Sadly it's true that we would need planning permission, I've checked. Nuts isn't it. I think we may have to go to litigation, as you say hopefully the idea of it will be enough to get him to help. Maybe just a surveyor's letter, you know a professional opinion. Thanks for your comments, it's nice to just discuss it at least.

It might be worth at least trying for planning permission?

Or have another chat with the neighbour. I presume you, or your insurance, would pay for changing his garden? If you explain it's either this or a lengthy battle for damages, in which everyone becomes a loser, he may compromise. Perhaps you could offer some compensation too as a gesture of goodwill? Will be less than the solicitor's costs.

Thanks for your suggestions, maybe we will just try for planning permission and keep our fingers crossed. We could stress that we're doing it to try to protect our property, not to make any changes to it. We'll give the neighbour another go, perhaps in a week's time when the steam has stopped coming out of his ears:-; Your idea of offering compensation is a good one, I hadn't thought of approaching it like that, and as you say it would be cheaper than litigation.

You won't need planning permission for tanking the inside- planning regulations dont cover this kind of work. Is the property listed? To be honest, you coud tank, but that doesn't address the cause of the damp and might not actually work in the long term. You coud install a French drain but that would need your neighbours permission.

I'd try again with the neighbours if it was me- compensation would help (although he should be compensating you!)

You have my sympathy. We have our own unreasonable neighbour. I wouldn't offer too much, maybe a couple of hundred pounds. It will make the idea a lot more tempting to him than solicitors fees and then probably having to change his garden anyway! If he agrees, get it all down in writing.

Please update and let us know how it goes!

Invite your neighbour round for coffee, and a friendly chat, and show him the wall.

Seriously, it will be soooo much easier and better for you if you can come up with a compromise, and maybe if your neighbour sees first-hand what the problem is, and realises you are quite a nice person really, who just wants to find a peaceful solution and won't leave him out of pocket.....well, better that than an expensive legal battle. You have to live next door to him.

Thanks everyone for your kind suggestions. We've tried asking our neighbour round and showing him the wall, and he just said it's always been like that and we're making a fuss over nothing. I bet he wouldn't say that if it was his kitchen wall:-; We'll try again though, and suggest paying a bit of compensation, as you say maybe that'll be a sweeter prospect than solicitors' fees. We definitely don't want to go down the litigation route if we can possibly avoid it. You have my sympathy too if you have a difficult neighbour, they're a pain aren't they! The property isn't listed, so you could be right that we wouldn't need planning permission, I'll check with our planning department. It was just something I read on the net, maybe it wasn't correct. Thanks again all for your help, I appreciate it, and I'll definitely let you know he we go with it:-;

One more thing, if he won't cooperate and you do need to litigate then check if your home insurance covers it. Many include legal expenses cover so give them a call and check.

You won't need planning consent for tanking a non-listed building - if you were creating more space that would be different, but you would be doing internal works to your existing kitchen so that is not the situation.

I would make sure that you tank the whole of the wall whilst you are at it so that, even if he does paint the wall, you won't have the same problem in the future.

Sorry, but I think your neighbour is allowed to feel put out if you're asking him to move his flowers and patio. It means he will, effectively, lose part of his property. Can the patio be easily 'moved' or will it have to be relaid or made smaller?

Is he very proud of his garden? Not what you want t hear, but I think you should offer compensation. (ps I am not your neighbour! )

Broccoli, I disagree - presumably the neighbour will only have to leave a small gap of a few inches in between his soil and Gail's wall. He is damaging Gail's home by bridging her damp proof course. He is being entirely unreasonable about remedial action.

Rotten situation for you, Gail. Let's hope you can somehow persuade the neighbour to be reasonable. Have you shown him the expert reports?

Am surprised the surveyor thinks you will need planning permission for works to an internal wall just because you live in a conservation area - conservation areas control the external appearance of buildings, not internal. Is it a listed building?

broccolirocks - the neighbour only needs to loose a couple of inches from his garden to create a space between his patio and the wall - hardly the end of the world is it? take a sthil saw to the paving stones or whatever on the patio to cut a couple of inches off and clear out the earth from the gap and backfill with gravel so the water runs away.

I agree with the others who say you don't need permission to tank the inside of your kitchen. Once you've tanked the wall would it be a big deal to strap the wall and cover with plasterboard/plaster/paint - that way at least it wouldn't keep peeling off.

Can I just ask, where does the water go if you tank the walls? I mean, it will still be seeping into the wall but the membrane means it won't affect the internal plaster anymore. Is that right? If so, what about damage to the external brick wall?

Could you not have a damp proof course installed above the level of his patio?

'Tanked' is what they do for underground construction these days - basically the damp stays on the outside so that there's no problem. Lots of our old houses have had damp in the walls for centuries so its not really going to be an issue there - it only becomes an issue if you want to keep the inside dry to (as in this situation) (old walls used to breathe and there were plenty of drafts to help move the moisture). Swimming pools are effectively tanked the other way.

You can't put the dpc above the level as you'd still have a damp section in between the new dpc and the existing floorlevel which is lower.

Thanks, one more question. Would putting in an internal dpc at the same level as the patio not work?

I'm asking as we have a similar problem (but without the nasty neighbour) and tanking then overloading has been recommended by one surveyor and another has suggested internal dpc and full replaster. The kitchen has been damp for years but you wouldn't know it without using one of those readers everyone uses. It doesn't smell damp and there is no mould.

You need to keep the damp out for everything that is below ground level - a dpc is just a line that is meant to be above external ground level and below internal ground level which stops the damp from going up through the brickwork from the foundations into the bit of the house you want dry. So, imagine a dpc that is above the garden level but above the floor level - it would stop the damp going up the wall, but it would not stop the damp between the floor level and the higher dpc - so you would effectively need to 'tank' from your existing dpc level (below the floor) up to above the external garden area.

Hi everyone,
Many thanks for your ideas, I really appreciate you all taking the time to try and help. We haven't shown our neighbour the surveyor's report yet, we're waiting till the steam stops coming out of his ears:-;, but we will, hopefully it will help. Our house isn't listed (thank goodness!), so it sounds like I was wrong in thinking we would need planning permission, that's a bit of good news. And yes, our neighbour would only lose a few inches by the side of his garden to let the water drain away. As you say, old walls need to breathe, and this would let the water drain away into the soil (according to the surveyor:-; Apparently we'd need to put a damp proof membrane between our wall and the drain, to stop it going back into the wall, but it would be below the gravel and so it wouldn't be visible. A damp specialist (another one!) is coming around today to have a look and see what can be done about tanking, AllBellyandBoobs I'll ask him about putting another DPC above the original one and let you know what he says. I think Mistlethruth is right, it would trap the damp between the 2 courses, but I'll ask the damp guy. Flippin old houses eh, they look good but I'm beginning to dream of a nice new one with one of those lovely damp proof courses built in:-;

Good luck with it Gail, let us know how you get on. The old house I live in came with my husband, it's lovely but full of issues, probably not helped by him ignoring them for the time he lived here alone.

I'd offer him some sort of compensation - maybe a chunk of money, or paying for something he wants doing to his garden at the same time?

I'm sure this would be cheaper than doing anything involving solicitors. Also you really don't want to live next to someone you've taken legal action against - it would be unbearable, and you'd have to declare it when selling your house too.

I would do something entirely within my control to solve it - because it would be important to ensure that the cut away area is kept clear etc, no plants grown up the wall or wall painted with certain paints if you rely on the solution from his side.

Hi All,
Well the damp proof guy has just been, and he has good news. Looks like we don't need to go down the litigation road after all! Allbellyandboobs, what he said might help you too. And much sympathy over your own house issues, old houses are like peeling an onion aint they, and like yours my hubby would happily live with the problems:-; The damp guy said our damp course is still working even though the patio is still bridging it, and he can see that because near the ground the wall is damp, and it gets wetter higher up. He said assuming water isn't dripping down from the roof (which it isn't, roofers have looked at it), the plaster higher up plaster is wet because when they did the original damp course, they didn't replaster high enough up the wall. They left the original plaster, which had previously got damp before the DPC was put in. Apparently damp changes plaster chemically (and here I got a bit lost:-; but apparently it becomes more absorbent in a damp atmosphere. So even after it's dried out and the damp problem's gone, the plaster will absorb moisture from the air for evermore. All you can do it hack it off and replace it. So they're going to do that, and replaster all up the walls with damp proof plaster. So yay, no more neighbour wars and no litigation!! Thanks so much everyone for your help, and fingers crossed that this fixes it:-;

Mistlethrush, I completely agree that a solution from our side is better rather than always having to worry what our neighbour is doing on his side. I think we'll just stay out of his way till the dust settles:-; Just goes to show you have to be careful with surveyors and such. They had me convinced that we had a legal battle on our hands, and were quick to quote me their hourly rate:-;

Ah, we were told our damp problem is caused by a similar issue. The plaster has become contaminated with salts which will continue to draw in any moisture. Our surveyor suggested the easiest thing to do would be to membrane the walls and put plasterboard over that. Apparently the specification of plaster required in old houses is something that a lot of people get wrong, and if it's wrong then you can end up back where you are started. Putting the membrane in would solve that problem. I suppose my concern is that the membrane would mask any problems that could become serious if ignored... I don't know. Anyway, it sounds like replastering could be the answer for you if your dpc is still intact and you know you have no moisture leaking in from anywhere else

I agree, it worries me too that we'd basically be attempting to mask the problem rather than sort it, and you can't see what's happening on the other side. You can never be sure can you that no moisture is getting in. For us, the ideal solution would be the French drain in our neighbour's garden to allow the wall to breathe, but I don't think that's going to happen:-; So your surveyor thinks that just replastering, even with damp proof plaster, may not solve the problem? Is your problem wall an outside wall? If it is, and it's rendered in concrete, maybe re-rendering it in lime may be the answer? That way your wall could release any moisture to the outside where it can't do any damage. Replacing the concrete with lime render has certainly helped our wall a lot. It still gets wet when it rains, but then it dries out a lot quicker than it did.
I'd be a bit cautious about putting a plastic membrane over damp plaster. Our dining room wall had a membrane covered over with wooden panelling. When we took it all off the wall was mouldy underneath. We wiped the mould off and it hasn't come back, I think the plastic was causing it. I know they're not leaving our salt damaged plaster on, they're hacking it off and replacing it, maybe doing that would help your walls?

I read somewhere that salts can collect on the brickwork underneath too, just not as much as on the plaster, so replacing damaged plaster with damp proof plaster keeps the rest of the moisture out. And the damp guy said gypsum plaster is extremely absorbent anyway, so it's a good idea to replace any gypsum you have in a damp area.
I don't know if this helps. To be honest I'm no surer than you what the answer is, it's more complicated than I expected:-; If you like I can let you know whether our guy's work does the trick, and exactly what plaster they're using. I'm not surprised people get the plastering wrong in old houses, new brick walls are much easier! Blimey I wish we'd bought one of the nice new houses they've just finished building near us:-;