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Difficult vendor

30 replies

donttrythisathome · 31/05/2013 11:09

Hi
I was wondering if anyone has any advice about a difficult vendor please - in relation to a refusal to provide evidence/confirmation about alterations to the property.

Here is what our solicitor said
We know there is planning permission for extension carried out in 1976 and a dormer extension in 1979 ? however our Local Authority search does not search back in their records this far when providing replies to our Local Authority search. As such I am unable to advise you if this alterations were carried out with the benefit of building regulation consent and signed off. The sellers solicitor will not agree to write off to the Council and ask. Do you wish me to insist this is done? The alternative (the former is preferable) is to check with your surveyor the alterations are sound and see if the seller will pay for an indemnity policy which insures against any likelihood of enforcement action by the Council (which is pretty unlikely given the lapse of time). When speaking to your surveyor I would advise you to also discuss the removal of the two internal walls which the seller tells us were removed before their ownership (13 years ago) ? they are unable to confirm if they were load-bearing or not which concerns me so you should speak to your surveyor about such

I feel this is very fishy, and that we should not have to engage a surveyor again (we already had a full house survey for the mortgage, which advised we get consents/confirmation for those issues).

Surely it is her responsibility to provide satisfactory proof/confirmation.

We do really want the house especially as we've forked out a lot of money already on the survey etc but...

What would you do?

OP posts:
LIZS · 31/05/2013 11:15

Sounds pretty standard to me. Their solicitor should have asked for same on purchase, so they need to check in first instance. They may find there is an Indemnity policy already in force. These are perfectly acceptable practice in lieu of certificates but if they/you apply to council and are told it has no pp then you can't get such a policy. Did your surveyor mention these removed walls before? He/she may not have to revisit to comment.

FriedSprout · 31/05/2013 11:20

Could you try contacting Building Reg department yourself and asking them if the work done was signed off by them? Not sure if they would give you details though as they work to different criteria to planning.

Would not worry about planning, there is no way that they will be interested after this length of time, although there is nothing stopping you visiting the planning department and asking for copies of the permissions. You will need these when you come to sell.

If you get no joy from Building Control, I would get the indemnity and get surveyor in again.

If you want the house that badly, I would personally not wait for vendor to do this.

Hope it works out for you.

donttrythisathome · 31/05/2013 11:24

Hi, thanks so much for the quick replies. It's helpful to get the different perspective on this, as my take on it is that this is the vendor's responsibility. But you pbviously think It is reasonable for her to leave us to sort it out. Obviously when we go to sell we don't want these issues to cause problems.
She should pay for any extra surveyor's costs surely though?

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FriedSprout · 31/05/2013 12:14

Yes, it probably is the vendors responsibility, she should be sorting the permissions etc. and paying for proof of the quality of work done if not available. You could wait whilst she does this, trusting that she will get on with it.

However, I would rather progress things at my speed, rather than hers/her solicitors/your solicitors etc. IYSWIM.

If you end up getting a surveyor as building regs not got, in then I would push for her to pay for that maybe.

rumtumtugger · 31/05/2013 16:42

Don't call building regs department, it will nullify any indemnity insurance. You nor no one you know can do this

MissStrawberry · 31/05/2013 16:45

How can you ask for removal of walls that were already removed? Confused.

donttrythisathome · 31/05/2013 16:45

Yes Friedspout you are right - it would be quicker, but the thing is its not our house. She should definitely cover the costs anyway, but she is such an awkward character....we had the offer accepted in Feb, and it is getting ridiculous at this stage. if there was any decent alternative we would have dropped this one long ago.

Rumtumtigger I didn't know that. Why is that?

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LIZS · 31/05/2013 17:14

I did allude to it lower down . If there are no permissions/certifications then no insurance company will indemnify you against enforcement by the council. However the likelihood of enforcement is quite low if the work was done over 13 years ago.

donttrythisathome · 31/05/2013 17:23

Thanks LIZS. Its a problem then for reselling isn't it?

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donttrythisathome · 31/05/2013 17:24

There is pp by the way, but they refuse to contact the local authority for building regs.

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Madamecastafiore · 31/05/2013 17:26

You should get them to take out the insurance.

But

I would get someone in to ensure removed walls were not load bearing or you will buying a property which could fall down around your ears!

donttrythisathome · 31/05/2013 17:30

I know Madamecastafiore - so dodgy! I'd have to insist on her paying for this extra survey though. Which she probably won't as she is difficult.
I'm stunned to be honest that someone could just refuse to give documentation/assurances re problems with their own house and expect the buyer just to accept it.
Maybe I am cutting off my nose to spite my face (which is why I posted on here to check I was not overreacting).

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LIZS · 31/05/2013 17:31

They must have had the same issue when they bought - I bet there already is a policy.

donttrythisathome · 31/05/2013 17:34

Hi LIZS - maybe she knows there is a problem and and she didn't sort it our properly when she bought (paranoid)?

Here is what I e-mailed my solicitor earlier (no reply yet)
^
the vendor's solicitor should have asked for these documents on the purchase. In the first instance they should check what was already obtained. It may be e.g. that there is there an Indemnity policy already in force.
In relation to the internal wall that was removed, our surveyor already advised in the report (see page 17) that it is not possible for him to know if supports are in place and our solicitor should ensure that local authority approval was obtained for this alteration. Could you please ask for this approval if you have not already done so? You say there were two internal walls removed - I think this is a mistake. There was however a wall removed from the back of the house to build the extension - this would be an external wall though. Building regs approval would have been needed for that as you say as well as the pp.
Like I said, we would like to insist on them contacting the LA. But in the absence of any documentation then we would need indemnities not just for the extension/dormer, but also for the alterations (pp and building regs approval preferred for this though).
Is there any reason why we cannot get the building regs approval from the LA ourselves (although I would want the vendor to pay any costs).
How does this sound please. What is the standard practise?^

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LastButOneSplash · 31/05/2013 22:18

I don't get this. I often see this discussion on MN. But I've now bought two houses with extensions and never seen any building regs stuff. If the extensions are old, both of mine are, does it matter? Rhetorical question really as I've taken a view they don't. The reason I'm posting this here is one day I could be this 'difficult vendor' as I wouldn't see what the problem was to respond to you queries in the way you're hoping. My solicitors have never raised it as an issue either. Of course maybe you're right to be concerned, maybe it does matter, but maybe the vendor doesn't get that, rather than being deliberately difficult. I dunno. Not sure whether that is in any way helpful, I just don't get it.

flow4 · 01/06/2013 00:59

As I see it, the issue is not really about rules and regulations, but about whether something might actually fall down or be dangerous! Building Regs exist to check for that kind of thing - e.g. have important structural changes been made, is the wiring safe, will the floor of your loft hold your weight, can you get out quickly enough if there's a fire...?

Most conservatories are exempt - i.e. they don't need regs. But extensions that are 'non-standard' or possibly risky do need BR - e.g. if they are over a certain size, involved knocking down bits of walls, aren't built on level/flat ground, are built over sewers, etc.

The indemnity policies you can buy only insure you against the council forcing you to put right something that doesn't meet BR requirements. They do not insure you against anything falling down or going wrong in other ways. That's why you need a good surveyor to tell you whether the work is sound.

The surveyor who's already inspected may not have looked at everything necessary to determine whether the structure is safe. For instance, if s/he assumed the extension did have BR, s/he would expect all the works to have been inspected - so s/he may not look at the foundations, for instance. But if s/he is now told BR was not obtained, and therefore that no-one has inspected the foundations to check they are strong/deep enough, s/he will probably want to dig a hole and inspect them her/himself.

Incidentally - and it is a very BIG incidentally IMO - my solicitor's advice is that normal household buildings insurance almost certainly does not cover work that should have had BR but doesn't. Therefore, if your non-approved extension falls down, or you fall through the floor of the attic bedroom that was never signed off, or your house falls down because a structural wall was removed without meeting BR, then your insurance will not pay for it.

If I were you, there is no way I would buy a house under these circumstances. IMO, you must get a surveyor to check the structure of the extension and the bits where the walls are missing, and tell you what would need to be done (if anything) to make everything safe.

donttrythisathome · 01/06/2013 08:33

Thanks Last, yes maybe she just doesn't get it. OI am worried about selling it on again.

And yes flow we would need to make sure it's safe, but I don't see why the buyers should have to fork out for the extra surveying fees.

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flow4 · 02/06/2013 10:06

No, I agree, nor do I. But I am myself stuck in a similar position where the vendors don't see why they should pay for surveys and obtaining regularisation, because they 'know' their conservatory is safe; and I don't see why I should, because I don't...

Cosmosim · 02/06/2013 10:46

Most people will tell you that if it's a dodgy built, it would've fallen down by now. If a load bearing wall is removed, you start seeing cracks in e walls after a time. That's why most people are not too worried about whether something that has been standing a long time and shows no physical problems has records of building regs.

Ask your surveyor what signs there should be if that wall was load bearing - and if he found any of those signs in the property.

flow4 · 02/06/2013 11:31

That's true I guess, but...

  • how long is a 'long time'?
  • you need to take into account factors that might change - i.e. structures that are affected by heavier rainfall, subsidence, etc.
  • unregulated structures are not covered by household insurance, so if there is a problem, you are not covered.
donttrythisathome · 02/06/2013 11:36

I don't think it's right to say if something is standing a long time it is safe. Things can and do fall down!
And even if I'm not worried, then a future buyer is sure to be!

What are you going to do flow? It is frustrating isn't it? My vendor doesn't seem to care about the potential of losing this sale - she lives elsewhere, and the house is vacant.
She doesn't have a big mortgage on it and is one of the beneficiaries of the housing price rise bonanza (she is older generation).

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LastButOneSplash · 02/06/2013 12:30

They go through stages though. One of our no building reg extensions is 1980s. It shows signs of cracking. Surveyor/expert friend talked us through the stages of settlement of a building. I forget the detail but there's 3 stages, the age of the building means we're in stage 3. The bad stuff happens in stage 1, maybe 2, so we're pretty sure it's ok. Can also tell there's not been moving in last 5 years due to ageing signs. We also factored in the worse case, which would be underpinning, all external,5-10k. We took a risk and decided that was a gamble worth taking. So although we indeed can't be certain, we can be pretty sure it won't fall down as it hasn't yet.

Not all buyers do care as much about building regs, so not all future buyers will care. It just depends whether it's a gamble you're happy to take. And there are gambles with all houses. Tbh I'm of a fairly similar mindset to your vendor, that of you care it's for you to pay. Whether I'd actually do that in a same situation is another matter, as I'm a kind and generous soul Grin but I can see where she's coming from.

donttrythisathome · 02/06/2013 12:48

I'm not willing to take the gamble or pay out for the extra expense, no. The house just isn't worth it.

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LIZS · 02/06/2013 12:52

So are you pulling out now? It is a fairly common issue and is not insurmountable. The EA (who will recognise that this is a problem which will recur if this sale falls through) should be able to negotiate a way forwards.

donttrythisathome · 02/06/2013 13:10

Not pulling out just yet no. Still waiting for the solicitors to get back to us with the vendor's response. If they are not willing to contact LA for BR documents/indemnify/pay for extra surveyors fees and any works to make safe, then we will though.

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