Turning attic into master bedroom suite - fire escape issues

[Rhubarbgarden]

We had a renovation guy round today to talk through what we want to do to the house. When we went up to the attic he immediately said "Ooh you could have the master suite to end all master suites up here" and started waxing lyrical about the lovely old beams and taking the ceilings out. All music to our ears as that is precisely what we'd like to do.

It was all sounding very positive - he reckoned it was eminently possible to get it past the listings people (grade 2 listed) which was our main worry. But then he pointed out that as it would be on the third floor, a serious fly in the ointment could be fire regulations. Apparently you have to have an escape route other than the main staircase, or have a window reachable by the fire truck's ladder. We would have neither of these. There is currently a very cool original escape rope and pulley system but I doubt very much it would meet modern regulations.

Has anyone else come up against this and found a solution? I know I need to ring up the local fire service for advice, but just curious to know if anyone on here has anything to suggest.

We have this - it's just a velux that opens from the top to allow you to lean out (rather than pivots in the middle) and is sited near the bottom of the roof. That's all that is required in our LA - you can get what are known as "conservation" skylights for buildings in conservation areas and, I suppose, listed buildings - I think they lie flatter than normal veluxes. Might they do the job?

Hm, we now sleep in the loft. We (1950s semi, 2 floors, now 3) just had to have fire doors installed throughout the main stairs. It never came up as a problem and has been completed and signed off by the inspector (who made sure they added the right kind of 'brush seals' to the fire doors) a couple of years back. We have a large Velux to the front which we could climb out of it we stood on a chair, but it was never mentioned... but then you're on the roof with nowhere to go? But yes, the Fire truck could reach it no problem.

I haven't got the regs in front of me (freely available online, but a dull read) but if I remember correctly (trainee surveyor, 6 months into maternity leave, please forgive fuzziness) you need either the second escape route you describe or for the only escape route to be 'protected'. This means it doesn't pass through habitable rooms on its way out, and all the doors onto it must be fire doors.

You no longer need a secondary escape if as the previous poster highlighted the route out it's a protected route. This means fire doors (you can do this with original doors if you have solid doors of good quality), fire resisting construction (again solidly built construction may not be an issue). I'd question his advice, he may be correct if you have other issues with your escape route it's hard to tell without a look, but it's a common mistake.

He might have been worried about making your current staircase comply with this protected element, given that you're in a listed building. But fitting fire doors really shouldn't be a problem, so it depends on the layout of your house and whether, for example, the stairs come down into an open plan living room before going out of the front door or if you have a hallway.

Lala we can't have a velux on the side that faces the road for listing and conservation area reasons (chocolate box village, Georgian house blah blah blah). We plan to use the conservation grade ones you describe, but they'd have to go in a hidden internal valley bit that can't be seen (except by a helicopter or google earth!) and it would be impossible to escape from that valley bit once you got out onto it.

Funnybird the protected route thing might be possible though. That gives me hope! Thanks.

Now you mention it, this all came up when I mentioned I wanted to get rid of an existing door at the bottom of the second set of stairs. So that's probably the sticking point - maybe I missed his point (to be fair, ds was trying to bite my face at that moment) and that door is a crucial fire door. It doesn't seem like a fire door though. So maybe he meant that if we take out that door we need a secondary escape route.

The fire doors aren't like those heavy self-closing things you get in public buildings. They just need to be able to resist fire for 30/60 minutes (depends on exact circumstances) and it's quite easy to replace your existing doors with FR30 and make sure your walls are fire resisting construction too. Unless you're in a stunning Gd1 listed draughty Georgian pile, that is! The problem comes when you want to remove doors or walls, for open plan living. And you probably couldn't get that past a conservation officer in those circumstances anyway.

unless you're in a stunning Gd1 listed draughty Georgian pile

Erm, well it's grade 2 but the rest is about right! We're not about to start trying to go open plan so no probs there. The door on the stairs just isn't very nice; it's not very in keeping and seemed a bit pointless, so I thought we'd just whip it out. But it makes absolute sense that somebody had to install it at some point to comply with fire regs.

Thanks.

Our la allows smoke alarms in every room in the house linked to the mains instead of replacing original doors with fire doors-would that help?

Oh that's interesting. That would be much nicer. I'll look into that, thanks.

Some LA Building Control Officers now accept the alternative of mains powered battery-backed fully interlinked smoke detectors (or heat detectors in kitchens - for obvious reasons :) ) however this is seen as the minimum provision to comply with the building regulations.

I always ask clients, would they be happy living on the second floor / loft, having a fire start on the ground floor and being reliant for their lives on a detection system alone?

For my part, if the fitting of fire-resisting doors (and associated work such as upgraded or new frames, smoke & fire seals, cavity barriers and so on) is feasible and not too costly then I would not recommend that they settle for the bare minimum in terms of fire safety.

You can also get some kind if fireproof paint for doors as well (if it's a nice one and worth keeping).

Before you get too carried away though perhaps its best having a conversation with the conservation department. Taking the ceilings out, doors, staircases- all will need consent. Get them onside first and it's always better to hear it from the horses mouth- I've dealt with so many cases where 'the contractor/surveyor/builder' said it would be easy to do etc, sometimes can lead to a lot of disappointment. Also it helps on costings I.e if they want any particular specifications (lime plaster etc) that sometimes can be overlooked by contractors.

Good luck! Your house sounds lovely by the way!

Thanks Sausagedog, don't worry we're under no illusions! We plan to employ a local company who specialise in renovating period and timber framed buildings. They oversee the whole thing and their architect is very experienced in dealing with the local planning office and has had a lot of success in getting plans approved for this sort of thing. Before we do anything, we are getting a historical architectural survey done to find out more about the history of the house to make sure that what we want to do is the right thing to do.