Structural survey on older property raises too many questions... what would you do??!! (Sorry, long!!)

[happynappies]

We're the third link in a four-part chain, and have our fourth baby due in four weeks (got three under the age of five atm, just to set the scene!). We've been trying to sell our tiny 3-bed house for two years off and on (came off market when had last baby), and finally got a buyer in mid-June. Mortgage application went through, and we instructed a full structural survey last week on the property we'd had an offer accepted on - a significantly bigger 3-bed house built in 1905, so big rooms, lots of downstairs space, big garden, and with the all-important potential for a loft-conversion to get us the number of rooms we need for our big family.

The survey raised a question about possible rot under the floorboards in a downstairs room, so from this we asked a damp/timber specialist to do an inspection, and he concluded that there was no rot, but that the joists had moved as a result of settlement. The original survey mentioned 'historic settlement' but suggested it was non-progressive. We spoke to the surveyor again and he suggested getting a structural engineer in to look into this issue further. We spoke to the estate agent this morning and came under pressure not to, basically, as we're slowing things up for the rest of the chain. At the bottom of the chain first-time buyers are getting married first week in September and then are going on honeymoon, and apparently are un-willing to wait any more.

When I pressed the damp and timber specialist he mentioned that the vendors had mentioned underpinning. We went back to the EA and said we'd definitely need to arrange a structural engineer, as possibly this could affect the mortgage valuation. We said the vendors had mentioned underpinning to the damp specialist, at which point the EA volunteered that she had a certificate relating to work carried out on the property 3 years ago! She's send a scan of this document to us, which basically states that the owners saw a crack in the wall and claimed on their insurance to get the crack fixed and to re-decorate, and remedied the cause of the crack which was something to do with under-soil drainage. The house hasn't been underpinned, and the problem was corrected, but there is no guarantee - just a document from the insurance company outlining the nature of the work.

Now, should we be thinking that we shouldn't touch this place with a barge-pole? Will insurers be put off? Or was it minor work that shouldn't effect re-sale value etc. My hormones are all over the place, and I just want to be in the house, as soon as possible, but am really resenting the EA approach, pressuring us not to have further investigations, and prioritising the first-time buyers and their honeymoon, when I'm 8 months pregnant and going crazy here!! What would you do??

I understood that the insurer at the time of a subsidence claim is obliged to continue to offer to insure that property even if it changes ownership - don't know if this means at an enhanced premium or not.

So, worth getting a quote from them.

That 'certificate' seems to give quite a thorough explanation.

Why not scan it to the surveyor who did your structural survey, explain that this has come to light, and ask if he can offer any 'opinion' (in addition to saying get a structural engineer) on how he would view the property now.

Presumably, he also hadn't seen the certificate when he did the survey - but the problem was not noticeable to him either.

useful maybe

fourwalls we contacted our surveyor on Friday with all the information on that certificate and he said it wouldn't effect the valuation he had sent to our mortgage company, but that he'd get a structural engineer (he's aware that we want to do the loft conversion). He was annoyed at the lack of disclosure from the vendors, as it has made him not look great - but he did spot what he thought was 'historic settlement' and asked us to look into it further. He didn't seem unduly concerned, but it is all this about not being able to get insurance and the effect of having had subsidence, even though rectified and 'signed off' on future re-selling. I'll look at that link now Noddy. Thank you everyone for all this really useful information, it is really helping me through quite a difficult weekend!!

\if you really love this house and want it, get in a structural engineer to either put your mind at rest or discover if there is something wrong.

When you say in the report the drain leak dislodged the foundation, and they repaired the crack and sorted the drains, did they fix the foundation too?

Well, the certificate doesn't say that, it says drainage improvements were carried out by the homeowner - the insurance just covered the cracks and re-decoration.

discharge of a rainwater pipe moved finer subsoil

oh that is very interesting

the crack we had, that led to us getting the engineer in, is almost immediately behind where our bay window's gutter downspout empties into....well, we don't actually know, it just goes into the ground - there is a flagstone above it now, although there wasn't when we moved in, but I do not know if it runs into a proper soakaway or just into the ground

also the sandstone uprights either side of the front door, right next to this downspout, lean out somewhat - there has def been more movement around there than anywhere else in the house

we just had new guttering installed last week so that won't be an issue any more, but I had a real lightbulb moment reading that - thanks, happynappies (this inf may or may not be useful to you too )

Sounds like you're covering all the angles.

Did the existing insurer quote you?

Was their quote still £500 more than you would be quoted without subsidence from another insurer?

In the end, it all depends how much you want the house.

If you're going to be selling it in less than ten years, then it's probably still going to be the same issue for another buyer, that it is for you, and that future buyer will walk away or ask for money off.

So you either get that money off now, recoup your anticipated future loss at this point, or if it's not your dream home, walk away before you spend any more money.

Even another surveyor will not give you a cast-iron answer and any future buyer will have to jump through the same hoops regardless of your surveys.

In the end it always comes down to your call. I don't know how much one would have to spend to find a survey that doesn't include a get-out clause - it's probably priceless! - nobody will ever accept liabilty to the extent that you might want.

I find I always make snap judgements on properties. I always try and put myself in the shoes of the person I will be selling to in the future and if it looks like a difficult sale or the doubts creep in, I generally walk away.

But I've never found that dream home yet so....

I really want the house - but I don't know how much of that is to do with the fact that I'm 36 weeks pg and want to be all settled and everything ok for the baby being born, not entirely rational at the moment. It wouldn't be a 'forever' house, but with the loft conversion we saw it as for the next 10+ years at least. Dh is always slightly more cautious, and he's feeling that (a) the vendors have been dishonest and he doesn't trust them, and (b) if we're feeling like this other potential buyers in the future might feel like this too. Also worried we might be paying too much. I still think we can speak to the solicitor, ask all the questions of the vendor to ensure we have as full information as possible, and then look at whether a structural engineer can answer the question about the viability of the loft conversion. The insurance might just be more expensive, but I guess we'd have to just swallow that if we went ahead. Very difficult to try to see it all logically. Been thinking about this house and the move day and night for months, so very hard coming to terms with the fact that it might not happen, but also not wanting to be 'put off' by something that need not necessarily be too much of a big deal.

Hi
I'm an engineer and the main problem i can see with this situation is the pressure you are being put under. The effect of this subsidence is material to you when choosing this house. First and foremost because i assume you wouldnt buy it if you couldnt extend? The insurance is important but secondary?

Classical subsidence is caused by tree roots in a shrinkable clay soil. It is difficult to solve and can be very messy & expensive. I did lol at the suggestion of splitting the cost up thread!

But your property has not had that apparently. It had leaky drains which supposedly been fixed. You want to know what the "fix" was. Relining? Replacement? If i heard this story i would advise you to get a below ground drain survey done. Cctv. It will cost a few hundred quid and you will get a report and a gross/boring dvd but you will know if the drains are sound or if they are going to be costly. Get that done before getting an engineer in so they can comment with the benefit of the drain info.

Wrt insurance have you got quotes in after disclosing the certificate? The vendor's insurer has to provide cover. Are the quoting high? Is the extra cost maybe just to do with the larger house?

Lastly the engineer. If the drains look dodgy or the current insurers quote is huge then get one.

If the drains are ok and the insurance can be found then the.chances of a lloft conversion being possible seem reasonably good. But if the loft.conversion is a dealbreaker for you, then it would be sensible to get this done. If you call one (get surveyor to give you a few names) it should be possible to get them in quickly after the cctv.

Good luck

I meant to say sensible to get a structural engineer to survey and report on loft feasibility.

(they will not be able to give you a definite, definite answer tho..... )

Hi tricot - thank you for that info, you are quite right in your assumptions about needing the loft conversion and the insurance being an issue but not a dealbreaker.

With the insurance - all we've done is get an online quote from a comparison site, ticking the boxes for subsidence and something about cracking wall - and un-checked the boxes to see what difference it made. We haven't approached our own insurers over the phone, or the vendor's insurers. We need to get more concrete evidence about insurance costs.

We're worried I suppose about throwing more money at the situation if it looks like we'll ultimately have to pull out. If we ask our solicitor to look into what structural work the vendor had done on the drain etc, that might fall into the category of 'more complex work' and cost us more in legal fees before we even start with below ground drain survey, and structural engineer. Can no one give us a definite answer because it would depend when we had the loft conversion done? I.e. someone could say that today the foundations are ok and would suppport the extra weight of the loft conversion, but that is not to say that the problem that caused the subsidence wouldn't return in the next few years?

The solicitor used the standard Law Society form to ask the vendors about what work they've had done on the property, and they didn't disclose this repair - if we'd known about it from the start we could have used the information when checking feasibility for the loft conversion in from the off. Before we even made an offer we asked a builder to have a look and give us a quotation. Then when we had our buildings survey done the surveyor asked direct questions about what work they'd had done and they still didn't mention this work... We do need to find out exactly what they had done - it was only three years ago so there must be paperwork/guarantees etc?

On the one hand people seem to say that this kind of thing isn't too serious, and shouldn't present a problem. We're thinking 'what if we end up buying the house, 18 months down the line realise we can't do the conversion, need to sell much sooner than we predicted because we've run out of space... and then can't sell, or can only sell at a huge loss, because potential buyers are so put off by the history of subsidence.... Sorry, am waffling on really - I don't suppose anyone can give us an answer - it just all feels so frustrating!!!

Yes it sounds very frustrating that all this has leaked out at the last minute (pardon the pun).

If you go with the current insurers the costs will presumably be reasonable. So hopefully that is one item sorted!

Paperwork on repairs - get the ea on the case. As suggested above lay it on the line that you want full disclosure. Highlight that it is the vendor's lack of transparency which has caused this hiccup and they better get moving to help get it resolved. Hopefully then you dont need to get the solicitors involved with extra requests. Otherwise ask the vendor direct?

However, unless all the drains were replaced i think that you will end up wanting a cctv drain survey for peace of mind. So as a minimum you should get that.

While that is being organised you can get fee proposals from engineers and get them lined up for a survey if needed. So it could be quick, but you can still decide whether to have one while getting it lined up.

i suppose it will cost a lot less to get an engineer's report than it will to move. Yes you will sink more into the purchase price but if you cant do the loft it will cost many times more.

Definite answers will be tricky because the engineer will only be able to go on an inspection and the reports already prepared. To be more conclusive they might need to do some investigations and the seller is unlikely to agree ( mainly due to potential for damage but also if they did find something nasty and you walked, then they would have to declare the nasty to another buyer).

Just a thought - ask to.see their cctv surveys. They will probably have had some done. Also work drawings/schedules etc.

Well, we've got some thinking time now because the vendors are away on holiday until next Mon, and we can't arrange anyone to come into the house to inspect anything until they're back. We've asked the solicitor to get as much information as possible about the work done, guarantees etc - but we're not exactly feeling hopeful about it all. May try to speak to drain specialist and or structural engineer, and possibly line up inspections for next week. Feels a relief in a way just knowing there is nothing else we can do. Solicitor is obliged to pass on any info to our mortgage lender, so apart from the re-sale value/viability of loft conversion/cost of repairs/difficulty to insure - it could also cause problems with the mortgage, but as everyone has pointed out, all of this is better discovered now rather than down the line. Think chances of being in before the baby is born are rather remote!! Thanks everyone for some really good supportive advice - Mumsnet is a wonderful thing!