Should I have a contract with my structural engineer / architect?

[MissPollysTrolleyed]

We are knocking down a structural wall between our dining room and kitchen and using an architect we used before who has retired from full-time work to become an artist and now just does some work from home in his spare time. He's a nice guy, seems really trustworthy and has good, safe ideas and is fully up-to-date with Building Regs.

The problem is that he's doing this for us really cheaply but there's no contract, no professional indemnity insurance and probably no comeback if things go wrong. I trust him but he sub-contracts the structural calculations for the removal of the beams to a structural engineer friend of his with whom we have no contact and to whom we are asked to pay cash via the architect i.e. absolutely no paper trail.

They have already both done their drawings and calculations and it's only now I find out that the structural engineer wants cash. The architect may want cash too. I think we'll fall out if I ask for a contract or to pay by cheque. I'm six months pregnant so under pressure to get this job quoted by a builder so don't want to start again.

So, my question is: do you think I can rely on the fact that Building Control will check the design and calculations and only approve them if they are correct? We're also using a really good builder so not cutting any corners there.

Alarm bells are ringing here. The structural engineer is the key one for me - if it were me I'd want something on headed paper in case of problems in the future. Have a word with Building Control to see what their position is. If nothing else it will make them check the calculations very carefully.

Can you do any research on the structural engineer via Google? It might help if you could see that he does belong to a firm and is experienced.

I dont tHink you should pay cash. Firstly, it's illegal and morally wrong and secondly it would be a mistake insurance wise and comeback wise. It will cost you more cash but less stress.
If none have you had discussed it, then you can claim, quite correctly, that you assumed that VAT would be added and that you require some sort of paperwork.

I have just completely renovated my house, and not one of the contracters, suppliers or tradesmen suggested I pay cash and avoid VAT. I was impressed.

Donteventhinkaboutit (hoping you didn't namechange for my situation!). I think these guys are probably both working below the VAT threshold as these seem to be nixers so they won't be VAT registered and it will be up to them to account to HMRC for the receipts in their tax returns.....I think .

Fresh I know this sounds terribly remiss of me but I don't even know the engineer's surname to research him. My DH is going to ring the architect today to quiz him further. Contacting Building Control is a good idea so I'll do that too.

Obviously the cheap fee is attractive but the main driver for wanting to proceed with these guys rather than start again is time. I'm terrified that we'll have builders in the house and no kitchen when the baby is born so really want this underway as quickly as possible.

We've recently done the same - knocked down a load bearing wall between kitchen and dining room.

We now have structural engineers calculations and building regs report safely filed away. Will you get the building regs report to OK the work?

Sorry - didn't see your only and main question!

When I got in touch with building control, they:

1. Saw the calculations before the work was carried out
2. Visited as the RSJ was being fitted
3. Sent documentation once all work being completed

I don't think building control would miss out stage 1.

Thanks sheep. We will definitely get Building Regs to approve the works.

Did you have a contract from your structural engineers or at least a headed paper letter from them enclosing the calculations? If I had something in writing, I'd be happy but I think this guy is doing this as a nixer so his boss probably doesn't know anything about it.

We used the same guy on our loft converted and I have an idea that I knew his surname then and that he was from a reputable firm (although doing this on the side) but I was even more naive then and didn't give the issue a second thought.

Definitely make sure they both have PI insurance! A retired architect is required to maintain insurance for a further 6 years to cover previous project where problems some to light at a later date. If he is still working however informal/part-time he should still have current PI. Please please do not proceed without this (seen way too many horror stories like this)

Vix, I guess this means that you think that the Building Regs approval is not sufficient.

Yes, I've just checked and have ...

From engineers:

Headed paper with calculations / drawing on. It details type of plate, bolt, size etc. A lot of it goes over my head though!

From Building Regs:

Letter confirming it's been carried out to 'satisfactory' standards and final certificate to prove this.

HTH

Building regs needed the calculations too.

I'm not sure Building Regs would approve something not from a bona fide / insured engineer?

Thanks so much for checking sheep. You sound very organised. I am useless.

My DH promises to ring the architect at lunchtime and quiz him. At the very least, I'll ask him to get a name so that I can talk to Building Control about it.

I think the chap is a bona fide / insured engineer but if I don't have any contractual relationship with him or proof that he even did the work for us, I don't think that will help me if things go wrong and it turns out he has taken shortcuts with our job .

Millpollys - organised isn't a word I'd use to describe myself at all (in fact the opposite!). I'm sure everything will work out fine, but best to check really. Good luck!

PS I lurve my kitchen diner, best thing we've ever done!

Lucky you. I am . Ours will be L-shaped and not very big when it's done so won't be my dream kitchen but will be better than what we have.

We'd love to move before No.2 arrives and that was our original plan but we won't be able to afford it when I go back to work and we have two in nursery so are trying to make the most of what we have as we'll probably be here for another three years at least.

It is not illegal or morally wrong to pay cash as long as you don't do it to knowingly collude in avoiding paying VAT. I have paid many of my workmen and sub-contractors cash many times. Sometimes the job demands CIS (not as a householder) deductions and those are accounted for before I hand over the balance. Most self-employed tradesmen are below the VAT threashold anyway.

It is completely up to them how much income they declare to HMRC and absolutely none of your business. Most tradesmen I know like cash because they like to go straight to the pub and they control their money by knowing how much cash is in their pockets.

I don't have a contract with my SE for work done on my house but I do have the calcs via email from them and hard copy on headed paper. They were reviewed by the Building Regs guy too.

Thanks remembering. Your understanding of the tax position reflects mine although you sound more knowledgeable.

My DH couldn't get through to the architect so I've emailed him setting out my concerns and asking if can have a hard copy of the calculations on headed paper. Hoping this doesn't scupper our plans but guessing it will help me sleep at night.

I'd definitely talk to Building Control too and ask what they need to have to review it.

It's poor practice and against RIBA Code of Professional Conduct to undertake a commission without adequate PI cover.

This is of course assuming your architect is (a) actually an architect and b) is an RIBA member. Along with the oddity that anyone can carry out design work in the UK, is the further anomaly that architects do not have to be members of their own professional body, but simply registered.

Your local authority building control surveyor will check the calculations - or more likely use a structural engineer to do the checking for him - so you do have a longstop but it's always better to know who you are dealing with as regards consultants.

Your architect will always bear a measure of responsibility for his design even if someone else has actually prepared the calcs.

Incidentally, we (architects) have to undergo training and examination in building structures but to a lesser extent than engineers. For something as simple as a steel joist to support a wall I would probably do the calcs myself so it's odd that your man hasn't done so - perhaps he is a little more out of date than you think.

(Or then again he may not be qualified at all).

Thanks "Pendeen". That's really helpful. I have checked RIBA's directory and he is not a member.

I've done some research on Google. He qualified as an architect in the 70's but, after a high-profile career (according to newspaper reports I found with Google), he swapped his day job with his hobby so became a full-time and successful artist who does some architectural work on the side.

So, I don't think he is a practising architect or RIBA member so I don't think he'll have PI cover. Hmm, I bet he's going to ask us for cash too, isn't he?

rememberingnothing and missPollytrollyed. Oops I think my post was wrong. I was thinking that the reason they wanted cash was to avoid paying VAT but I can see it could be just because they prefer cash....which is perfectly understandable. Fair point. Sorry for my post.

Good luck with your decision.

Hi MissPolly, sorry I had to pop out. My point about PI is not so much about making sure he's bone fide competent/qualified etc but rather that things can and do go wrong with these things leading to major issues down the line, even tho they might have been signed off as far as building regs are concerned - without PI cover you are likely to have to foot the bill for any necessary corrective works yourselves. And you MUST have a contract - otherwise you have no record of exactly what services he has undertaken to perform - leaving you in a v vulnerable position legally. I would also check your own buildings policy.

Probably 90% of the small scale architect PI claims I've seen start with the story: recently retired, still keeping his hand in, really nice guy etc.

Of course this guy may be absolutely fine but it makes sense to be sure esp when doing anything structural. Good luck!

Please don't go ahead without checking the insurance situation. We are in a bit of a pickle with our build right now because we didn't check out our structural engineer well enough. Unfortunately we started the project before we had building control approval as we were assured by our builder and the building control officer that it would be ok to do so. Everything was going well until several concerns were raised about steels etc for the roof. After a few weeks of stress and to-ing and fro-ing, the building control department have said they will accept our plans, but our builder is sufficiently concerned about the engineer's competence that he has asked to see his insurance documents before he resumes work on site. Our relationship with the engineer has totally collapsed and he refuses to answer any communication. I am now fairly sure that he doesn't have appropriate qualifications, professional status or insurance.

Yes, building control check the plans, but if something goes wrong, your action should be against the structural engineer, not the council. We are having to pay another engineer to check the plans and give us the protection of his insurance. We have also lost about three weeks work on site plus all the costs that a delay entails. At the moment, we have just half of our roof intact and my nerves are pretty much shot to pieces. Our build is a much bigger job than yours, but removing walls has to be done properly.

By the way, you do have a contract with the architect, but the terms appear to be very unclear and, as it is an oral contract, the only evidence you have about the terms is your own recollections. Not a great position to be in. You need proper contract with both your architect and your engineer.

Good luck. I truly feel your pain

Thank you so much for your advice Vix and ArtyJools. We raised it with our architect and he told me who the engineer is (turns out he's very reputable and that our local authority employs him to check other people's calculations) and said that we were welcome to make things official with him by going through his firm but that the fee will be three times what he would have charged. I think it's worth it for peace of mind though.

As for the architect, I appreciate the advice and know that it's good advice but I'm going to go with my gut and take a chance on him as we have met with him many times and I really like and therefore trust him. His work carries less risk than the engineer's as the only structural element is the knocking down of the wall and we'll be covered by the engineer's work on that.

Meanwhile, I've started looking at Rightmove again - I'm getting daunted by this whole process already and wondering whether we shouldn't just have moved.