Freaking out about build costs on a large job...

[betterwhenthesunshines]

4 bed rewire and re-plumb / heating. Single storey extension: The identifiable costs seem OK (roof etc), but there is a huge sum for preliminaries, yet all demolition, ground water, drainage etc are all separate costs. Also the tender does not spearate out the supply and fit costs for bathroom items so I can't see what they are charging me relative to RRP. Surely some of the bathroom fit costs would be covered under the plumbing costs?

I would like to see a full breakdown - not every light switch - but I would like to know if the labour charges for each section of the job are reasonable eg on fitting wood flooring. That's not an unusual request surely - the devil is in the details? I just feel a bit like they've whacked a random figure in and I have no way of knowing how much I'm actually paying for each part.

Oh and VAT and architect fees are such a killer.

Ask for a break down. How is this being done? One contractor, one invoice doing all the work? Or different trades?

Who is project managing? When I PM my work I can tell what a screw cost, never mind what is where.

One contractor, one invoice (using their own site manager). They are subcontracting the plumbing and electrics. I have asked for a cost breakdown today - I don't want to make myself a tricky client before we even begin, but surely they must have down a detailed cost breakdown in order to submit the tenders ( we had 3 fairly close together and one way out).

It's going to be a bit more expensive than standard as there are site accessibility difficulties, but nothing too impossible.

Totally reasonable. We had breakdown of everything including fitting bathroom. Make sure these are final figures and not PC sums (provisional costs). Provisional cost will be estimate based on trying to win contract

Don't worry about being a tricky client. Ask for and about anything and everything. Speak to them daily. Thats not being tricky, thats being prudent. If you don't understand aspects of the break down, ask them to walk you through it. The same goes for any other issue that arises.

You are hiring this company and they are providing a service, they are not doing you a favour here!!

Ask for the break down. A good builder should be happy to supply it. Of course they need to make a profit, but you should be able to know what each part costs, then you can make decisions. Do you really nee the architect? We often find that the builder /project manager can do a perfectly good job without interference ( prepares to be shot down)
Good luck with your project. Don't be bullied.

Thank you - we have the breakdown for the £30 k(!!!) 'preliminaries' now. That's preliminaries, not the actual building... And believe me that's thrown up a whole load of questions: £900+ for cleaning. At £10 an hour that's 90 hours. £7k for 'attendant labourers' - well what are all the other labour costs for then? It just makes me wonder about all the other costs.

Honestly, I really feel like they are trying to take us for a ride, but it's tricky as they were the lowest quote overall so it's difficult to negotiate. I'm just gobsmacked at the whole thing. We've done similar works before and it didn't cost this much so we're just a bit but thanks for the back up!

Ask for a further break down. I agree that you might not need an architect on this job. Unless you are going for something unusual.

So what needs 90hr cleaning?

How many labourers will be used and for what? What are they getting paid?

Ask these questions and if you are not happy with the answer tell them. They might have reasonable reasons in which case at least you know!

In all honesty I would be looking into doing this job differently. Using a small building firm who will help you PM it and take full control of the work yourself. From the info given I think you are being taken for a ride too.

Perhaps it is time to be 'tricky'.

I agree with you Oreo. I found a small building firm as I wanted them to tender to as I suspected they might be more reasonable. In the event we had 3 firms around the same price, so we are discussing with one of them, and the smaller independent guy came out 50% more expensive than all the others.

I don't think ther's anything that unusual - it is a fairly extensive refit, but nothing top range eg staircase is simple painted softwood, no oak newel posts. We had the architect as it's in a National Park and they have planning experience. Could possibly have manage dit all another way, but in the past our experience has been that architects def add value and it's a worthwhile expense.

Might it be possible to give the quote to a quantity surveyor. It will cost a few Hundred quid but they will be able to tell you everything you need to know. I did this when we had our house renovated, it saved us much more than he cost us.

We had a QS look at the plans before they went to tender. The overall price is in line with what he said (and we balked at), but the allocated costs are vastly different eg roofing QS £23k builder £14k and yet the builder tender is much higher in other areas so it balances IFYSWIM. And in other areas the costs have just been grouped differently so it's impossible to compare.

Maybe I'm just out of touch, but eg cost to fit 1 IKEA basin cupboard and build 3 full height MDF cupboard doors and paint them is £900 +VAT. My feeling is that this is a one / two day job so should be about £450. Just an example.

Hello Better, thought you may be interested to know that BATJIC give guidelines for wages as: adult advanced craft, that would be your carpenter, £13.65 per hour, general operative, £10.12. Apprentices and young operatives about £8
Of course there are admin costs to factor in on top of that. It might just help in working stuff out. Are the cupboard flat pack? If you are having them made from scratch I think it would be longer than 2 days.

Get a surveyor!!so worth the additional spend for the money and hassle they will save you. On a similar size job mine has cost me 1500 and saved me around 8k

"... as they were the lowest quote overall so it's difficult to negotiate ..."

How was the work priced in the first place?

Lump sum based on specification and drawings?

Bill of Quantities?

You said your contractor was the lowest bidder so (usually) would not expect to then have to negotiate. He has provide his competitive price and won the job. Provided always - of course - that you as client do not then start to change the scope or extent of the work. To this end a schedule of rates would be far more useful that a breakdown of his tender.

As regards various comments from others on the necessity of using a architect, I assume this refers to the post tender services? This is an service which I always pray a domestic client will not ask me to provide because it is often the most time consuming and least profitable area of work and - TBH - a quantity surveyor is sometimes usually better at this than us.

Thanks Pandeen. Yes; lump sum based on specification documents and drawings. We had though this meant the same as a fixed rate ie the job would be tendered with breakdowns so we could look at any areas for potential savings -by negotiating any changes to the material spec. And then agree on a final sum to go in the contract as fixed. Turns out it means lump sum - take it or leave it. Which is not what we expected and has been rather hard to get our head around at this level of figures. Although we have now got used to this idea, but it doesn't feel very good...

For example the cupboards they 'forgot' to include even though they were shown and detailed on plans and have now been added as an extra price. And the architect didn't argue our case that this should be included within their original tender.

Anyway as we say we have tried to identify if there are any areas where specification changes might make savings, but it seems this too is non-negotiable as it would involve more work that the architect is not prepared to do, which is frustrating having got to this stage.

However, as much as we can ascertain, we think the overall cost is appropriate for the scale of the job and access difficulties etc We would like to keep the architect on board - his design - his responsibility to check it all progresses accordingly. Perhaps we should have gone for the builder / surveyor drawn plans route but we're here now.

Can you confirm that this lump sum system really does give us security? It includes various contingencies. But once it all starts we should expect that the architect will insist that works covered by the specification are done without any further costs right?

The short answer is "yes" however when in a competitive tendering situation, contractors sometimes bid low to win a job and hope to make up the difference by claiming extras on site e.g. arguing that items were not included or poorly specified or they had priced for an alternative and so on. A common claim for extension of time and therefore more cost is poor weather (very likely at the moment).

This is why I said above that I do not like post tender services (what are known as stages J to L on the RIBA plan of work) because it can be very time consuming and exhausting when constantly arguing with contractor (and sometimes with the client as well) if the work has been 'won' by margin pricing. We do have some training in costs and measurement (and quite a lot of tedious training in contract administration) however a QS would be able to match the builder's estimator on an equal basis.

I hate to say it but if your architect has caved in over something as simple as an item clearly shown on his drawing, things do not bode well...

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I agree they seemed to cave in pretty easily on that one and I still feel unsettled about this approach. However it does seem to be their way of working and short of pulling out and starting all over again (at risk of ending up with an even higher quote) I feel we are over a barrel with this and don't really have much choice at this stage.

I suspect that the architect's view would be that it was a genuine oversight and pre-contract can still be corrected. We have told them not to bother with the cupboards - we will find an independent carpenter post-job. They did ask the contractor to confirm that everything else specified has been included and there is a line somewhere about "everything need to complete the job in accordance with specs and drawings is deemed to be included" or something. I think they will be quite firm about this once it is all underway. I flippin' hope so anyway!

I tthink you should ask the qs who did the pre tender estimate to review the tender if you are not yet in contract. They should be able to help draft a list of queries and/or help sort out value engineering/cost savings with the contractor if you need to save money. Do not start work on a lump sum contract until you are sure you will proceed without any changes or it will really cost you!

Update:
I've had a call this morning from the architect who says he doesn't think he's going to be able to carry this forward. Professionally I don't think they have left us in a very good position. We currently don't have the contractor signed up yet, we have a lump sum contract in the making but now no-one to administer it. And we've waited 2 years and fitted around his other workloads to get to this stage. There are still some other queries I have that I have been continually told - that will be resolved on site, eg the heating services design.

So my question is what next? Do I try and persuade him to stay on board? If not, how do I find a contract administrator and what is our comeback, if any if we end up in a situation where there have been flaws in the architectural design and they are no longer on board to help resolve them?

Depends upon his original fee offer.

As I mentioned above, I dislike the contract admin side and it sounds as if your architect feels the same way.

If he has done what I usually do and quote for a design service just to obtain building regulations and planning / listed building consent then there is very little you can do I'm afraid.

I do make this very clear at the initial stage and it's very few domestic clients who want this service anyway (public sector and other clients such as the National Trust on the other hand always go for 'full service').

His liability to you will be for the design so you should have recourse if there are any flaws.

As regards a contract administrator, a Quantity Surveyor would be your best bet - smaller firms are usually more friendly and will also be able to sort out a contract for you and deal with your cost queries. RICS

We now have a message from the contractor with a reviewed lump sum tender which incorporates some minor changes (eg composite instead of all wood bathroom window at extra cost as it will be inaccessible for exterior redecoration) and a revised (delayed) start date. There have been no savings on site set-up or specification changes. I understand this - competitive job - no leeway for manouevre etc We don' want to lose this contractor as the next one was £13k more.

While we are OK (not happy) with this outcome, we would also like this job to happen. Our ideal situation would be a meeting with the builder where we can review for example the cost for internal doors (currently nearly £3k for making and fitting of painted softwood doors - we think we could buy standard doors for much less than this). We don't anticpate any major changes, but for example I would like a chance to review the extent of tiling in the bathroom. I appreciate if this is for a greater area than currently shown on plans there would be an extra cost involved, but would expect this to be a reasonable amount. I'm talking about making a current splash back behind a basin from 40cm wide to 1.2m wide. So really minor things and obviously not worth falling out about, but at the moment I'm being made to feel I can't raise a query against anything.

Also it's all being done by chain telephone calls and emails. I would like to set up a preliminary meeting, but the contractor says he needs a letter of intent, and the architect says a letter on intent is legally binding. So it's all a bit chicken and egg. Aaaargh!

Rather than a letter of intent how about offering to pay him for his time. Then you can sort out the bits and pieces you are unsure about and he will not be worrying about you wasting his time. A few hundred quid is nothing in the grand scheme of things. building things that is

Ps nicely hung internal doors take ages to fit and standard doors only fit into standard and truly square/plumb doorways. (rare ) Standard composite/ veneered doors often only have 5mm worth of play around the edges that you can plane down for a true fit.

Thank you - we certainly have no intention of time wasting. I have just looked back through all the correspondance ( since summer 2010!!) and at every stage it is the architect asking for delays or apologising about other work commitments.

TBH I think he's just doesn't have the time and has realised that his junior who has been handling the details has made promises that can't be fulfilled. But it's shitty that after all that it's us left with things in a mess.

Oh, I didn't mean you were wasting his time just that he would be happy he wasn't wasting his time, Err, I hope you see what I mean. I deffinitly wasn't meaning to sound like I thought you were time wasting
I know with our building work I really wanted everything down in black and white but I realised, at some stage, I just had to take a bit of a leap of faith. Fortunately, everything went well with our builders and after a 10 month project we were still on very friendly terms.

Good luck

I seem to remember that it is almost impossible for an architect to resign from a commission once appointed - although it's entirely possible to fire one! I think you better ask him to confirm what the situation is in relation to his professional duties and PI cover. Although as Pendeen says,if he was not appointed for full service you are stuck. An alternative is to ask him to find you someone to administer. If there are design issues to resolve an architect would better than a QS.

Thank you for all your helpful feedback on this, I really appreciate it. Another sleepless night feeling sick.... Leander Smiley face very helpful :)

We are definitely ready to go onwards with the contractor - I only hope he doesn't pull out too, if the archtect is now out. The delay involved has meant the scheduled start will have to be pushed back a further 6 weeks as in the last 2 weeks when the contractor had not yet been advised that he was the preferred bidder by the architect as per our instructions he has taken on further workloads. We will just have to accept this now and sincerely wish to move forward.

tricot The architect's inital letter to us sets out the stages of work and states "... we would then provide contract administration services and site inspections to completion. ...Our normal service (stages C-L) takes the project from inception to completion." So it is an interesting point you make about it being impossible to resign. However, given his management to date, we may be better off persuing an alternative route. I had 2 useful conversations with surveyors yesterday, one who is happy to administer on an hourly rate, with no design input. And one who has a building design division and would take over at the rate to the RIBA structure for these stages ("although, it will probably be a bit cheaper. It usually is as we're not so, well, complicated about things")