structural engineer / building control question

[Artyjools]

We are in the middle of a fairly large extension project and to say that I am mightily stressed would be the understatement of the year.

We are building a first floor on top of an existing ground floor extension. The structural engineer was recommended by a builder who I trust but who isn't doing the work for us. We put in our application for building control approval and started work. Building control officers have been very helpful and happy with the work so far but the admin side has taken much longer than it should have done.

At quite a late stage, the council's structural engineer has asked a few questions about the calculations for the steel beams and we have had to stop work whist we get our structural engineer to check his calcs. The trouble is he is on holiday and won't hear of spending a few minutes to help us out. The builder is putting pressure on us to take a risk with getting the steel beams in now, but they are hundreds of pounds each plus the cost of getting them in, so that seems to be madness to us. The builder is telling us he has lost faith in our structural engineer, but admits that little glitches like this are common. I am worrying lik emad because I cannot see from the paperwork that he has any professional qualifications or is a member of any professional institution.

Sorry, I managed to post that without finishing. My question is about the role of building control. It seems to me that they check what my engineer is doing to ensure that the calculations are suitable/safe. Is that right? My engineer is saying that these questions are normal procedure and that they will be easily resolved - and that seems to be the approach of the council's engineer and BC officer.

Am I worrying too much?

Building control's function is to administer the building regulations and as a normal part of that role, Building Control Officers (BCOs) have to ask for information from applicants and their advisers to support the application.

It's important to keep this in mind because each BCO can exercise judgement as to the level of detail required - varies on a case by case basis.

I know that, in practice, BCOs build up relationships with local contractors and professionals such as architects, surveyors and engineers and will not treat all consultants or contractors equally.

You mentioned qualifications - usually they would be T, AM M or FIStructE - the Instute of Structural Engineers e.g. 'MIStructE'. For a simple project such as yours any grade would probably be OK. An engineer should also hold Professional Indemnity Insurance as well.

As I see it the conundrum is whether it's cheaper to allow the contractor to suspend work until your engineer has satisfied the council or to take the risk and install steelwork which may need altering.

If I were your architect I would play safe and recommend that you suspend work - it may be that the contractor can divert labour to other projects or indeed carry on with other work on your project.

Thank you Pendeen. Yes, that is exactly the conundrum. I agree with your conclusion, but I feel quite presurised by the builder. However, I have just found out that he has indeed put his guys to work on other sites, so that has helped a little.

The council has outsourced the structural caqlcs bit to a private firm of engineers. His questions relate to the suitability of the beams

Thank you Pendeen. Yes, that is exactly the conundrum. I agree with your conclusion, but I feel quite presurised by the builder. However, I have just found out that he has indeed put his guys to work on other sites, so that has helped a little.

The council has outsourced the structural caqlcs bit to a private firm of engineers. His questions relate to the suitability of the beams

Oh my word, I am having major problems with my computer at the moment. It sticks and then posts before I am ready!

Anyway, what I was trying to say is that the external guy has spotted some errors/inconsistencies. Should I be worried about this to the extent that I should no longer trust my structural engineer or is this fairly common? I take your point about insurance, which I shall check, but I would sooner know that the building isn't going to fall down!!

Having studied structural engineering over 7 years as part of my architectural training I am extremely grateful that I can nowadays pass many structural problems to an engineer because the calculations can be horribly quite intricate.

I can sympathise if your engineer has made a few minor errors or his asumptions as to loadings or choice of materials may be at variance with the council's engineer or even with your contactors choice of steel supplier. Another possibility is that the drawings do not entirely accord with the calculations e.g. " 203mm x 102mm x 25kg steel joist " in the calculations becomes " 102mm x 2032mm x 25kg steel joist "on the drawing!

(Not that I have ever been guilty of that myself you understand)!

In very general terms (and please bear in mind I'm not a structural engineer) most design solutions contain 'factors of safety' and also - quite rightly - structural engineers are more often than not quite cautious people. The very last thing they would want risk is a collapse so I suspect the queries are simply checking rather than a wholesale dismissal of the design.

Thank you Pandeen, that really has put my mind at rest

As pendeen says there can often be queries and it is bad luck that these have come up while the engineer is on holiday. I can understand your frustration but at the same time i think it is a bit much to expect the guy to have taken your paperwork with him to be in a position do deal with queries!

Anyway if you have the wording of the queries post them here and we can give you an idea of how serious they are.

Bear in mind that it is in the interests of the checking engineer to find issues to justify their fee and/or they might be a nitpicker!

I don't have any professional advice to give but have just come to the end of a similar project and would second the point about the tolerances allowed for these things. More than one builder working down the street from us came round to have a nosy at our work while the steels were going in, and they all made comments along the lines of our beams being sufficient to hold up an entire battleship:) Good luck, I remember how stressful this bit was (and all the bits following, gah!)

Thank you tricot and libelulle for the reassurance. I haven't been able to post on here before now as my stress levels reached fever pitch!

Our relationship with the engineer completely broke down and he is now refusing to talk to us at all. The council has said that they will accept the revised calculations but the engineer stipulated a steel which is as rare as hens' teeth and more expensive than necessary and it is a moot point as to whether this is down to incompetence or vindictiveness.

We have found a steel. However, our builder is sufficiently concened to say that he won't proceed until he sees the engineer's professional insurance documents and the engineer won't respond to our request to see them. I am pretty certain he doesn't have any insurance.

Soooo...we have instructed another engineer to check his work and provide us with the benefit of his insurance. Hopefully, the builders will be back on site on Monday and they can make up for some of the lost time.

I am never, ever, ever doing this again!!!!!

Sorry to hear of your troubles and stress levels, this sort of situation leave a bad taste all round and does little for the reputation of any of us - architects, engineers or surveyors if that i the sort of service you have received.

One point I didn't query - are you using a 'building notice' for the work or 'full plans' i.e. an aplication was submitted with drawings and alculations which were approved before you commenced work.

I ask as you said in your OP " We put in our application for building control approval and started work " which suggests a building notice.

I have read this with interest and am sorry that you have had such a stressful time. Hopefully the second engineer won't charge too much or take too long if he's just double-checking the other guy's work.

Best of luck with everything - just hold on to the thought that it will all be worth it in the long run.

Our whole house got completed flooded during flash floods while we were getting our loft conversion done as we hadn't paid extra to weather-proof the works because it was July and it's obviously not going to rain in July [sceptical]. It was a disaster at the time but we'd forgotten about it two weeks later and now I quite enjoy recounting the story of our naivety.

Pendeen, there are lots of you in the profession and I don't think it reflects badly on you as a whole. We were just unlucky, although I should have been more careful. It is the insurance issue which most concerns me. People who are doing this sort of work really need to provide the protection of insurance cover.

The application was a full plans one and, no, it wasn't approved before we started. I can see that was a mistake and I am kicking myself for that and for failing to check his qualifications/insurance at the start of it all.

There was a general lack of communication between us and the structural engineer. We couldn't get him on the phone and e-mail queries I raised with him were answered with abrupt one line answers. I was happy to not have to communicate with him, TBH. Unfortunately, I had misunderstood the whole process.

However, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, so hopefully building will recommence on Monday.

Oh no MissPolly. We did, thankfully, pay for the tin roof to go over the top, otherwise we would be having major problems due to the rain. What finally made up our mind for us on that point was the builder telling us that one client, who lived in a three storey town house, had decided against the extra cost, and the rain came so hard, it brought the ceilings down right to the ground floor. Grim!!

hi

sorry things have broken down with your engineer directly but glad he has sorted the calculations.

engineers pick beam sizes from steel tables published by Tata steel. there are also British standard sizes. some sections are more common than others and this can vary with time between rollings at the mill. it sounds odd but engineers are not generally up to speed with which sections are readily available so don't be too hard on him for that.

anyway the steel can't be that rare if you have sourced it in under a week......

i also don't understand why your builder is interested in the engineer's insurance . is he appointed to the builder? if so you need worry less as contract links would mean your builder would be liable and would then need to chase the engineer.

if he is appointed to you, then continue to chase a copy of his pi certificate for your records. although with all the checking it sounds like you will have little to worry about.

take care - it will be over soon!