help wording objection to neighbours planning proposal

[annoyednow]

Is anyone experienced in planning or gone through the process of an objection? My attached neighbour is proposing an extension astride our common boundary of a semi-detached house with garden in the greater London area. Not inner city.

Their house is 3 metres longer at the back. So although it was built originally like this it effect is equivalent to a two storey extension of 3 metres over ours. This in entirely a party wall (even the bit that sticks after our house).

The proposed extension is a single storey tapering tiled roof with two slylight windows starting at a height of 3.8metres and sloping to 2.3 metres. It is 4 metres long. The entire back of the extension opens to the air by folding glass doors.

The surveyor said they have a right to build up to the boundary and could gain access to our garden to do this. This would involve disturbing a thickly planted area of very old woody wisteria. About half or metre in from the area they would be working on is an garden pond with newts for sure but also other froggie things. It is an established amphibian habitat. He said they would put a wooden hoarding up.

The thing is I don't want somebody working on my garden and taking things up. Also, this is not just a once off. Once a building is up that can only be maintained from my side, it would create a situation where they would have a de-facto easement and right to enter my property and keep destroying this area in perpetuity. I do not this burden created on my property.

It would also block the morning sunlight from the back of the house.

I am making points of objection. Can anyone tell me if they are valid or point out anything useful?

Height, nearness and length overpowering. It would altogether create a roughly 7 metres house wall down the attached side of a semi-detached property. I have not seen anything similar on local properties and don't know if there are any guidlines on too much length overall.

The property not being completely built or maintained from their side is potentially creating a nuisance and threat to our established garden and peaceful enjoyment of our property. It would restrict us on that side. Also would close foundation and footings affect our pond. There were no cross sections of foundation in drawings.

Would the completely opening doors cause a noise problem. It's like removing the back of the property. It is a conservation area and we have jutting out french doors. Would the upward noise of slylights cause proplem in bedrooms.

I know people can build up to the boundary wall. But this is not knightsbridge. It is semi-d land in suburbs. Also each case is different and are there any merit in planning to mine.

I also have palm trees and an apple tree near the proposed extension.

The drew incorrect boundary lines in drawings despite correctly outlined site location map. Does this invalidate the application. I hope so as I was so worried about the boundary I am only now looking at the actual development. Also, inconsistencies on application form. Less than one week for submission based on this application.

Can I truly asses this drawing based on incorrect boundaries?

Please help and sorry for annoying long post.

I wouldn't mind if they built an extension that didn't adversely impact on me. Physically or visually. Built in their own garden and maintained from their own garden. The development proposed in the drawings is not that extension, or even entirely on their land.

Actually I'll pick up a few points you raise because I'm waiting for some corrected plans to come back.

I agree that development right up to a boundary causes all sorts of issues and also overlaps many areas of law. Planning deals only with land use issues, you've already explored the party wall issues and there will also be issues surrounding access for maintenance. Planning will look at amenity issues and the impacts of the development on your property. Preventing future access to your land for maintenance is not something that can be controlled by planning permission.

You already have a 3m projection which has been there for some time. Presumably it was there when you moved in and it hasn't been an issue. You have to disregard the development that is already there and consider the additional development. The application proposes another metre or so above pd rights and it is higher. There will therefore be more impact than an extension limited by pd. What you have to consider is the additional impact of the extra height and length. You can try going down the route of the cumulative impact of the proposed development when added to what's already there but the fall back position for the applicant is what would be permissable under the GPDO.

It's not unreasonable to want someone to build entirely within their own property to prevent maintenance issues but this sort of development goes on every day. I let my neighbour have access to our property to maintain his garage roof, it's an afternoon every other year and it's not unreasonable. I don't get involved in this issue very often but how would the courts see the access issue? Would it be unreasonable to restrict access? Do they already need access for maintenance if the existing building is on or close to the boundary?

Inaccurate plans are very common - see my opening paragraph. There isn't necessarily an intention to deceive, it might actually just be an error. Have the plans been corrected now?

No, the plans haven't been corrected. The planning officer is away this week also. I don't know when or if anyone is taking over. It is not simply an afternoon though. They will have their builders on my property for I don't know how long weeks/months, outside my french doors, destroying my planting and pond. My point is I want to prevent it becoming an issue for maintenance. And no, I don't want a bunch of strangers forced onto my property for someone else's development. Why would I?

That exposed wall to the side of our garden is a continuation of the party wall, the surveyor said. It is the flank wall of their extra projection, but still a party wall.

Yes, pd does modify it at least. It would be better than proposed plans. Do the planning authority have to grant them the amount they would have been able to build under pd?

I have also let neighbours other side lodge ladder and attend to their roof and fascia/soffit on one occasion. They are courteous, ask beforehand, she supervises and they clear up afterwards. Also day job at most. That is for an existing build. The are reasonable people. I don't trust the other side at all. I don't want a new reason for access created.

Gut-wise, I don't think it was an error, application form also had blatant inaccuracies. Confusing as the couple said they both sold flats to buy the house, but she is down as sole owner (of part of my property as well). Trees within falling distance down as negative. My palms are tall. The boundary line was not drawn falsified to their disadvantage! If they do this on documentation they know people will see, what will they 'try' if only disinterested building control are the only one's they have to deal with.

Sorry for rant. Can't even ask the planning officer on the case anything. Feel ambushed. I can't believe we can't be left to the quiet enjoyment of our own property.

No the planning authority will not grant the amount that would be permitted under pd. If it is refused then the applicant has the right of appeal. If the appeal is dismissed they can apply for an amended scheme which takes into account the reasons for refusal or they could extend under permitted development rights.

I don't know how much access their builder will require to construct foundations but in the vast majority of cases the work is done from the applicants side. You've got the party wall issue there but I can't help on that at all as it's not planning. I don't know what happens if you refuse to give access but you have a surveyor who can advise on that and no doubt a solicitor would have to be involved.

She may well be the sole owner. It won't make a lot of difference but appropriate notice must be given to affected owners and if you have shown that the boundary is incorrect and your land is involved then it will have to be amended. If the trees are within falling distance then the planning officer will see that when they inspect the site.

Planning officers don't just take the forms as gospel, the make their own judgement after site inspection and using the reresentations from consultees. I wouldn't expect them to pick up a boundary inaccuracy without evidence from the owner but they will definitely spot the trees.

Thank you Jins. Building control may not pick up on boundary inaccuracy if replicated in their plans under pd route.

No building control won't be too concerned with boundaries. Have you seen page 17 of the guidance mistlethrush linked to?

That might make a pd extension unworkable.

Jins - based on what the OP's said about the back of the property, yes, p17 might be good on the pd issues.

How about:

"Hell NO!"

Just a thought

I'm not sure that the Case Officer would accept that as a justification for refusing the application!

Oh, I wish that pg17 was applicable. The original extended bit/annexe is roughly two-thirds the width of the fullest width of the house. There is only one step in the building. So they are building onto the rear of the extended bit, not wrap-around. There are not 3 steps like the example on pg 17.

Husband's first reaction was that Orm. Over my ... came second in relation to a bunch of someone else's builders in our shrubs.

He can't believe we could be forced to do it and someone can interfere with our property. We're not involved in any development work. We'll get the stress of someone's else's dev. I'm way more pessimistic and accept people will try and dump on us from a height. He is happy for them to take us to court, in theory. We couldn't afford this though. We do have a legal expenses as part of our insurance schedule. Have to see how this works.

Annoyed - why don't you write to the planning officer setting out all your issues with the proposal, and indicate that if they simply off-set the proposed development by 1m from your boundary you would withdraw your objection?

In theory it is possible to construct the extension with - for example - eccentric foundations and (as I mentioned above) carefully select the materials to ensure that minimal disruption is caused to your property from construction and future maintenance.

On several occasions I have had to design extensions or new buildings with these conditions imposed - it is more difficult and certainly more expensive but not impossible.

OP, as your concerns relate so much to the disturbance (both immediate and future) this may also be worth following?

I wish I could choose foundations that didn't involve disturbing my area. Also materials to minimize disturbance, but I'm not doing the build. I will be always on the defensive. They are completely willing to run a coach and six through our enjoyment of our own property. And it seems the law allows them.

You know I have chairs either side of my french doors and was sitting out there this evening. With the cat and the froggies and the smell of honeysuckle and roses. I was thinking 'they can rip all this up'. Look at any part of your own homes and think how you'd feel if some stranger could come in and destroy it (minding your own business on your own property) to do something for their own benefit on theirs. And then I thought 'and they can then keep ripping it up'. I'm going to spend my summer holed up in my front room or looking at a hoarding/scaffolding/someone's else's builders from the back through my closed garden doors. We're going to be paying the mortgage for someone else to benefit from our property!

Think I'll check in legal, but I think party wall act rips up right to peaceful enjoyment of your own property.

In some ways you are right about the party wall but it is also the tool which you would use to do what pendeen says.

It is a couple of weeks since you first posted about this - have you tried talking to your neighbours about your concerns as suggested on your thread? Invite them to look at your planting and pond. You will find out then if they are prepared to be accomodating. That's not necessarily what you will get if you try to conduct negotiations through statutory bodies....

I also think if they are at planning now it will be winter at the earliest before work started. However if you obstruct matters you might delay it until next summer and force the situation you dont want! Talk to them!

We haven't seen them for around a month. They don't live here and never have. They bought a house that had been rented out previously. The house has been vacant for over a year.

They have various workmen doing stuff inside and then leaving various discarded fittings in the garden. I think we need to strengthen our wooden fence (our property and completely on our land). Otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised if they felt perfectly entitled to get their workmen to move it out of their way.

They had been coming around at weekends cleaning up before and kept coming next door to say come over and see what we've done. They called one evening and really were quite persistent I came over and see what they'd done already. I thought they were being very social. When I was over there, they then informed me they were going to build an extension on the boundary and they'd 'have' to place workmen our side. The did not show us any paper drawings. I was reeling quite honestly. He (who doesn't appear to be owner or applicant acc. to planning form) patronisingly said they wall would then be there if we wanted to extend. Yeah, sure we'd get planning permission to extend 7 metres. They didn't say they'd already put in the application and seemed quite happy when I said we were going on holiday. Maybe they thought we wouldn't get time to comment.

The application form and drawings have 'inaccuracies' on them. These are hit and run people. They bought next door, but are not our neighbours really and we have no relationship with them. I think negotiation for them means telling us what they are going to do on our property.

OP whilst I sympathise entirely I can't change the planning system and make it work for you :(

Planning is concerned with land use issues and amenity. If the proposal isn't appropriate or has a negative impact then it will be refused. You are able to make your views known but it will not be your decision as to whether or not your amenity is unreasonably affected. Planning is intended to protect us all, you from adverse development and your neighbour from unreasonable restrictions on their right to develop.

If it is refused then the applicant may choose to exercise their right to build under the GPDO. There is nothing at all that can be done about that, it's been enshrined in law for many years and the limits are designed to ensure that the chance of an adverse impact is minimised.

Please just discuss your fears and concerns with the planning officer when they return or it is passed to someone else

Thank you for replying Jins. I will have to accept whatever the outcome of the planning process will be. Even if it's refused, I know they can do the 3mlong x 3m high extension on their land up to the boundary. .

What I am incandescent about is their seeming ability to trample over and deprive us use of part of our property for their personal project.

I've been looking at the pond and there is a rockery area surrounding it. Some of the large rocks have been set firmly in the soil. I wonder if the party wall act will allow them to dig the area up to flatten it out. The area is quite uneven. They would have to cut away my wisteria. The act says something about removing fittings and furniture. Does destroying and digging up correspond with this? Plus killing my froglets.

Don't forget we're not building. But my property is being converted into a building site. The very area opening into the garden through the french doors. If we were renting I'd be moving as it will curtail our ability to enjoy the property.

I can't comment on party wall issues and I've no personal experience because we haven't got one as we own the boundary wall.

Take appropriate advice when you need to and try to stop worrying about it as you can't do anything yet anyway

I'm really sorry if what follows comes across as overly harsh but I think there are some things you can do to improve your personal lot without confrontation.
I've read your posts over the last few days and you seem to have a general problem with neighbours full stop. Particularly when you live in an attached house, there needs to be a level of acceptance that you will be affected by the way other people choose to live their lives. I've lived in a terrace with a teenage girl playing her music full blast for most of the day when I had a newborn baby, and her and her alcoholic Dad spent most of the evening / night rowing with highly audible bad language. I appreciate that your situation isn't comparable, but the tack we took was to politely make them aware that we could hear and request that they keep the volume down. For the most part this was effective.

Try and talk with your neighbours in a non-confrontational fashion. They probably aren't aware of your mounting concern for your wisteria and froglets..... Invite them over for coffee and cake so you can both discuss plans and come to a mutually agreeable solution. This might not be your 'ideal' scenario, but it may be a hell of a lot better than if you left it, or objected in a sufficiently fierce way to get their backs up.

Pamplemousse, did your neighbours come into your property to play their music, or have their arguments in your living room. Then it would be comparable to building their development from my garden. Would you have politely asked them to leave and then when they waved an act at you and said 'tough, we have a right of access' offered coffee and cake.

They are simply owners of the attached property. It is empty. They do not live there and we have haven't seen them for over a month. They would be perfectly aware of our situation if the council has circulated a copy of the objection.

I don't talk to my neighbours in a confrontational manner. Maybe that is the problem. Boundaries and all. Literally and figuratively. The guy who came over re. me parking with bumper covering sloping stone of dropped kerb and when I apologized started shouting at me. yep, that was definitely my issue.

And the nigh on 10 hour fire in neighbours garden. I should have politely said if she has it on for more than a reasonable time, I would call environment.

I must be missing something. These people are literally turning my home into a development site for their project and I am getting their backs up..

Maybe I should move out, rent another property at my own expense and their builders could use my house for bathroom , kitchen etc.

Annoyed - you need to ensure that you get a good party wall surveyor appointed (at their expense) who can advise you properly on your rights and exactly how much disruption is acceptable on your property if they build something to the boundary. Indeed, you might want to get a party wall surveyor to give you some advice now, paid for by yourself. I can't advise on party wall issues as I don't deal with that sort of issue. I do know that they can't just put up eg gutters over your land without your express consent - I've recently dealt with a proposal that put a roof over a flat roofed section of a building whose outerwall formed the boundary - the Planning Officer asked for details of how the rainwater could be dealt with because a gutter would not be acceptable in the circumstances. Whilst their proposal is more significant in terms of building a wall on the boundary, the issue of the guttering is the same.

This case has not yet been decided. The inspector will be calling out to inspect the site and will call to see from my perspective as well.

One thing I am very concerned is they have reiterated their claim to ownership of flank wall and part of our garden. I got a party wall expert out before (at huge expense) because when I saw the plans I was unsure what it was all about and he did not hesitate in saying it was an extension of the party wall. Measured etc. So the exposed flank wall of their house on our side is actually 'our face' of the party wall. He said the fence is not even the boundary but ours and on our land entirely as it is aligned with 'our side' of the party wall. The boundary itself is on the other side of our fence. This is really cynical stuff. I'm stressed to the hilt.

Haven't seen the owners for six/seven weeks now. They don't live there. They have builder guys going in irregularly. Do not want these people near our property when they start building if their strange claim on to our side is anything to go by. Need to think about what I am going to do if they physically trespass and remove our fence.

Out of interest, does anybody know if there has ever been a prosecution for 'recklessly or knowingly' filling in the wrong ownership certificate (A instead of B) on a planning application. When the applicant breezily declares they are sole owners of part of neighbour's garden and also part of public pavement on the other side. Although aforementioned neighbours have got in chartered surveyor who refutes claim, to still persist.

They said ownership goes from eaves down both side to where line hits the ground, even though their eaves oversail building line. An architectural technician drew the maps up and is the agent making the claim. They don't seem to understand that a house wall that straddles the boundary is a party wall and not wholly owner by them. Also, they don't seem to understand (or want to) that the imaginary boundary line runs roughly down the middle of party wall and fence continuing from 'our side' of party wall is our fence completely within the boundary of our property.

If they make such an aggressive claim without suitably qualified people verifying it, surely this is reckless at the very least. I've been stressed out of my mind and we had to fork out for surveyor to find out if they were right.

Hi! You have my sympathy as I am going through the same myself. This will cost you money to sort it out even if you are in the right. Check your household insurance to see if it covers legal expenses and notify them straight away if you do have insurance. (Any delay can invalidate a claim). You have two issues, what they are actually planning to build and secondly where it is being built. The first concerns planning the second concerns your legal rights which is not the role of planning. By the way, as for access there is a legal right of access to maintain property but not for new development. If your neighbour is a bully (mine is) the only way to counter them is be sure of your facts (costs money) and hit him hard. I put mine on a notice for an injunction including costs for encroachment last week regardless of any planning decision. Apparently a new set of plans has just been submitted to planning that I have yet to see. I told them that over a year ago but it took actual legal action before they listened. He also has a legal duty of care to your property. Photograph everything before any work starts. Good luck!

Thank you for your posts.
Mistlethrush, thing is we haven't got as far as the building stage yet (of course they could just career ahead under pd). Trouble is they still maintain that the party wall is not a party wall and is entirely owned by them. The planning inspector was out and looked at it from our garden and house. On this basis, I think they have requested form B be filled in. I don't believe they have a chartered surveyor around. I think they are going on what their nincompoop of an agent says ( maybe he is just arguing their wishes). He is not chartered/ rics.

Oddly enough, male half of couple has shoved a note in the door. She alone is the sole owner stated on application form, but note is from him alone. If they were to fill form B out, they would have to add him as well, I reckon. Ye Gods. Reckon they think they are going to to browbeat us. Why can't they get a goddam chartered surveyor to look at the boundary. Mind you, the fact they don't speaks volumes.

Muddyboots, it's so stressful, isn't it. Yes, we do have legal up to 50,000 per incident on insurance. As there is no legal dispute, I didn't think of using it. I will ring to find out. You put them on notice for an injunction based on the planning application, is that right? Did that take long and did your insurance cover the cost. Can you choose the solicitor? If they were convinced there was a valid basis, I believe they would have had proper surveyor and would be sending solicitors letter. I think they are trying to fudge and bulldoze ahead. You've had a year of this! I think I'd end up on the grog! You're quite right about the two issues. In a way the boundary issue takes the attention from the other. Their agents reply was absolutely pathetic in response to the boundary line. He resorted to capital letters to make points and just said as there is a roof and stuff above it they must own everything underneath. For a 'party wall surveyor' he had no understanding of them. Before I had the chartered surveyor around, I thought they may have some sort of squatters rights , but I know now it is all baloney. What sort of people are they? What hard necks.