Raise a family outside London or outside Paris?

[Spalva]

Good morning!

We are a Franco-American expat family currently living in Lithuania. My husband is being seriously considered for a position in an NGO which has offices in London and Paris. I prefer London, my French husband, of course, prefers Paris.

Thanks to all the wonderful mums here, I have been able to narrow our search around London down to Saffron Walden or Colchester. My dh needs to get into Liverpool Street (he can walk from there to the office). Also, we own a little house in Brittany, France and think it would be handy to hop a plane at Stansted now and then (if we can even afford that anymore after moving).

Dh would earn around 46-48,000/year. We already have a 600/month mortgage on the house in France. We have not paid rent in 10 years (paid by employer), so it is going to be a shock to our system! I figure our budget for rent to be around 800/month. I can't imagine having to pay council tax on top of that! And the season ticket around 3600/year! My head is spinning trying to figure out this move. Of course, we would enjoy a 3 bed house but are willing to have our two girls share a room for a while.

What I can't really understand is whether or not a pleasant family life in this situation is feasible in the UK. We are a nature-loving, simple family. Don't need high street shops or amenities like that -- a shop to buy organic foods, a farmers market (saw that there are two weekly in SW), green areas to romp and breathe are what we really need.

I would eventually like to be employed part-time. I would like to care for the elderly or the disabled or work for a church, library or school.

We would have liked to put the girls in the Lycée but the areas around it are so expensive, I can't see how it could work (besides getting in). And the commute across London is killer as far I can tell. Colchester has a French Saturday schoool for our little one (will be 7) and our big girl (12 and just finished equivalent of year 7) is keen on a science school (though I would prefer a language specialist and have my eye on Newport Free Grammar School if she could get in). She's French/English bilingual, has studied Russian, Ukrainian and Lithuanian and will be in her third year of German already. Also bright: top 10% in most subjects). She's been in an international school these past two years (primary in the French system). The little one has been in the French system since age 4. I'm also really keen on lots of sports activities, especially for the big girl (totally lacking, in my opinion, in France for girls).

Oh! And I've become worried about my eldest since searching around the schools. All the girls in the photos are stunning! All long hair and girly-girl! My daughter has short hair and is a bit of a tomboy. She had terrible bullying in primary school and I couldn't bear for her to go through that again. Do any girls have short hair? I'm half-serious here but it worries me a bit.

I told my husband yesterday that after my searches I had concluded that our overall quality of life would be better in the UK. But then I read that the UK is the worst place to raise a child and that the schools are on the bottom. So now I'm confused!

So, do you think I have my sights on the right areas? Do you think we can manage on our salary there?

And what about living somewhere within London (giving up that 3600 yearly for the train)? Any places with cute houses and some greenery commutable to Liverpool St.?

I am not a fan of living anywhere around Paris. Have any of you lived in both and can compare? We can barely afford to live anywhere around there, though I've found some pockets in Yvelines and in Suresnes. I feel like the schools are mediocre since we really can't afford any of the international schools. I feel like there won't be anything for the girls to do in terms of sports. But I haven't lived there since eldest was two years old (we lived in Issy-les-Moulineaux) which was quite nice, actually, but we had one baby and a one bedroom. Does anyone commute from farther out, like Evreux? My husband feels our quality of life will be better in Paris. Of course, we would be closer to our house! By the way, we would want to be out west where we could catch a train out Brittany (Saint Brieuc via Rennes).

Thank you in advance for all your wonderful advice. I would like to stay with this thread and let you know what we decide!

Hertfordshire is lovely and there are lots of good schools. I can't compare to Paris as I have never lived there.

Hi, If you want some views on Paris you should post on "Living Overseas".

It sounds like you have already decided to settle on London tbh. You haven't one positive thing to say about Paris!

I don't see why you think your DC wouldn't be able to do any sport in France, the smallest villages here are heaving with clubs etc. esp. with having Wednesdays off school.

Also I think you would find it easier to be in the countryside somewhere near Paris which doesn't sprawl as much as London.

OTOH, I wouldn't go for somewhere like Evreux - I was there recently and it's pretty provincial and out of the way. Rouen would be a better bet - plenty going on and only an hour to Paris IF your husband worked nr St Lazare.

To give some comparison price-wise, we currently pay a mortgage on half a bog standard family house (3 bed, ex-council (social) housing) - the other half we paid for in cash by way of a deposit. We live in the outer london suburbs (Surbiton), and the mortgage on our house costs us £1,100 PCM. Council tax is about £160 per month, with two non-paying months (it's the way they work things out). Season ticket for DP to get to work is about £120 per month.

DP's salary is approx what your DH is earning. There is NO WAY we could afford to live here, and also service another mortgage for £700 PCM (or even £400 pcm). We don't live expensively and rarely eat out. We do have a car tho.

I don't want to put you off but it's important to be realistic about costs in London - they are high, although the rewards are also high and I wouldn't really like to live anywhere else now :)

I think London's schools are by and large quite good, but it is important to be aware that sometimes towns with grammar schools (e.g., selective education after age 11) tend to have not-so-great schools for those who don't pass the tests. Your youngest daughter will probably be needing an in-year junior school/ primary place so take utmost care to rent near enough to a school you like enough. Admissions at schools pre-11 are done mostly on distance - or regular attendance at a particular church (yes, really), and if you live far away from your preferred school/ don't have a record of attendance at the required church, it is possible that others who live nearer will be given first preference when an in-year place comes up.

We also looked at Colchester, and again decided against it because the commute ends up taking too long if anything goes wrong with either the train or the tube. Lots of people do commute in from there tho. Wivenhoe is nice - villagey, on the water, but has a train station.

What about somewhere around an hour by train to the west of paris and therefore nearer to your Britanny holiday home?

Yes I thought that budget sounded v. small for rent in the UK too!!

BTW, if you go west of Paris you will have to go back into Paris to get a train to Brittany - in France all routes are via Paris!

But you'd certainly be more likely to use your holiday house there if you actually lived in the same country.

My parents have a holiday house near us (we are in Normandy, they are in the UK), and they go twice a year. They are retired, and could afford to go more often, but it's quite a long journey and can be expensive - four sets of flights, even on Ryanair, add up pretty quickly, especially on weekends on in the school holidays.

And then you'd need to hire a car while there to get from the airport.

HalleLouja -- love your name! Yes, Hertfordshire does seem lovely.

jamaisjedors -- Thank you for the tip on where to post. I know it's terrible that I have nothing positive to say about Paris. Sigh. I lived there five years. I'm not a big city girl. Since Paris I've also spent three years in the horrible big city life of Kiev. Now we live in Vilnius and our life is just so pleasant that it's hard for me to consider going back to the Paris life. I just got the feeling that there was more of an opportunity to find a sort of country life an hour or more out of London and still be direct into the office. I don't mind Paris if we can find something like that but it seems that in order to be commutable it has to be (small) city life. I just can't seem to find a country area that is connected to Paris.

I suppose I don't actually know much about sports in France. We have always been in the French school system abroad where no sports are offered.

I realized today that dh's office would be in 13th and not 10th like I was thinking. Rouen sounds nice but Saint Lazare is not a great station to come through. I need to look at something south, southwest. 13th is not great for commuting.

Really, I'm still open to Paris if I can just find the right spot. :-)

Cross-posted.

Yes, our budget is small.

If we lived west we would go to Le Mans to catch the TGV to Saint Brieuc.

From Dinan there is a bus service to Saint Brieuc. Not great but beggars can't be chosers.

Honestly, we're very realistic about this whole thing and we think we may not even be able to visit the house once we're settled in Paris! That's often how these things go!

We don't have an offer yet and I'm still hoping they will miraculously provide a bit for housing.

You can definitely find the sort of lifestyle you're looking for on the Herts / Cambs border - we have it ourselves, and various of our neighbours commute into London. The schools in and around Cambridge are also generally very good. However, the problem is the price. The easier the commute into London and London salaries, the more costly the houses are.

I've had a look and there do seem to be houses available in your budget of £800, but I'd imagine that they would be rather small!

property.cheffins.co.uk/

Thank you GrendelsMum!

What I've decided for now:

1. We can't live in the UK without an expat benefits package. I'm not sure why dh thinks he won't be offered one. He claims the Europe office of his org is different but the job announcement clearly states "international pay package" and the umbrella org states that these packages do not apply to locals. He is not a local -- unless, of course, he asks for Paris. So wait and see! I'm tired of waiting already! :-)

2. I may insist that we simply stay here, though dh's job is killing his soul after five years on this particular project and my girls would like to be in a culture closer to their own.

3. If he insists on asking to be placed in Paris, I will ask to live in our house in Brittany. Anyway, he has always travelled a ton and we're used to not seeing him. He could also ask to work from home a certain number of days per month. I simply can't see our finding a pleasant place to live anywhere around Paris that doesn't involve a long, expensive commute that will most likely involve strikes and other such inconvienences. I thought I had found the solution, Orléans (50 mins into Austerlitz + métro to Place d'Italie) but he reminded me that he travels frequently and it would be 2 hours to Roissy (airport). Fuhget it! I'm done trying! :-))

How long would it take him to commute from Brittany? 6 hours? Or would he live in Paris in the week?

Thank you for your interest, jamaisjedors. He could stay a certain number of weeks, travel a certain number, work from home a certain number. As you can see, I'm sure, I'm just blah-blahing to myself. :-) Thank you again.