Neighbours being difficult about our extension

[Ghanagirl]

I need some advice/ space to vent we have decided to extend our 1930's semi we live in NW London and can't afford to buy larger property nearby we have boy/ girl twins who currently share 2nd bedroom as third is teeny, have planning permission for loft and L shaped extension, it's probably going to cost over 100,000 pounds now the neighbour is being difficult about party wall agreement and trying to get other neighbours onside, they have one grown up son and have a small rare extension which we didn't object to, she's still being friendly and her husband is talking to my other half but it got a bit heated yesterday starting to feel really stressed, can she put a spanner in works?

What is it you need a party wall agreement for?

As long as you have plannning permission fr everything you are doing, then they can no longer object. Presumably they contested the planning notice? And the council gave you permission (or it is withing permitted development) and they are using their energies trying to be difficult over the party wall agreement?

Talk to your solicitor - presumably the party wall agreement is being drawn up by a solicitor?) and see what power they could actually have - and talk to the loft conversion people or your architect and see if there is a good way of doing the extension without needing an agreement.

And I would try and be calm and reasonable with them - say you understand why they don't want building works etc, but it's just one of those things, and if you move out (as you might have to if you can't extend) the next people will probably also build - because you would be selling with pp in place! So there is little point in them trying to block something which has been agreed by the council through our democratic processes. I would tell them that their own house could be hard to sell and / or lose value if they start a dispute with you, or make it impossoible to develop their own house.

Is the extension going to extend to within 3 metres of their wall? If it is, and will be below the level of their foundations, you will need a PWA.

How do they know about the extension? There are structural engineering firms who prowl around council websites looking at planning applications and then contacting the immediate neighbours to scare them about PWA much like ambulance chasers. Your neighbours can insist on an independent structural engineer which you have to stump up the cost for. If you're still talking to them, much better to try to allay their fears by showing them the plans.

But they can't stop the extension, no.

They didn't object to the council when we applied for planning permission, I presume because they realised they wouldn't have valid grounds because there are a number of similar conversions on the street and we wouldnt be blocking access to daylight. Hubby doing party wall agreement but if they dispute it then both sides need to hire a surveyor to come to agreement, it's just more money and the delaying of project, was just starting to get excited about project but now anxious :-(

What are their objections ?

Thanks for replies, it will be within 3 metres of wall so we will need party wall agreement. SwedishEdith you're right we had planned to tell them once we gained planning permission, but a surveyor contacted all our neighbours us included and warned them of the perils of letting your neighbours build. I know they can't stop us but think they can delay and cost us thousands which will eat into our already tight budget. Honestly she's like hyacinth bouquet, she was the same when the people to the rare of our (not hers) were building she kept warning me they had moved the fence an inch or two!

Yes, PWA seems to have created as many problems as it was, presumably, meant to solve. Thing is, if your dig your foundations before issue PWA, it then invalidates the whole process. It is not retrospective and there are no penalties for not complying with it not that I would ever suggest that you do that, of course

Aaargh! Looks like its going to dispute stage so upset as my DH is engineer so knows what he's doing we have had detailed structural drawings which we have submitted to them, which to be honest I don't think they understand, he's a maintenance man she's an administrator, it's just going to cost us more money and our budget already tight, feel like telling her she's taking food from my babes mouth (yes I'm being bit dramatic) but she's really p'ing me off as I know she's the driving force not her DH, anyone gone down this route with neighbours and still had a good relationship when work completed?

which to be honest I don't think they understand, he's a maintenance man she's an administrator

If you come across as being this patronising in real life, I'm not surprised things are getting heated! I don't think it's unreasonable at all for them to be concerned about the structural integrity of their home. Really, you're just going to have to suck it up and maintain politeness. A friend of mine had an issue with a tree on their boundary which their neighbours wanted them to cut down. It was all conducted through solicitors so they could remain as detached as possible from the whole process. Surprisingly they remained friends!

Instead of seeing her as being a problem, try and see it from her point of view. You're about to embark on an extension which will create a certain level of disruption, noise and nuisance to them when they will get no benefit at all from it. Indeed, the foundations could theoretically damage their home. You should be trying to do everything you can to keep them sweet IMO out of consideration.

Daisysteiner, As I said earlier I'm venting/asking for advice here so I can maintain politeness, I'm not being patronising I'm being honest she doesn't understand when the neighbours behind our house ( not hers) were putting up an extension she gave me a blow by blow account of what they were doing each day as I was trying to get my twins off to nursery, we've only communicated with them about this through the builder they have appointed to speak on their behalf and despite her trying to whip other neighbours up I've remained incredibly polite, but at the end of the day we do have planning permission

And as for disruption, both her and the neighbours across the road did major renovations just as I brought my twins home from hospital after 5 weeks in Special care but I know it was just bad timing and I only complained to my mum or DH and let them get on with it!

These sort of laws do my head in, my friends neighbour just bloody did the work and ignored my neighbours concerns, the builders drilled thru into her hues loads of times and their loft extension is practically on top of HER kitchen extension. And no one gives a fart, building regs people just went "meh"

I don't understand why some people get away with it and some can stop things (that sound reasonable)

You need to get a party wall surveyor involved - shop around there can be a huge amount of variation in quotes. They can't stop the work going ahead but the addition of yet more costs can be a pain - I'm sure your engineer DH knows about this but I've found over the years that giving both sides this booklet means they understand what the party wall act is www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/partywall and it helps reduce difficulties. As it spells out what rights people do and don't have. Many people see the PWA as a stick to beat their neighbours with when they don't want them to extend but have no valid planning objections. It isn't it's actually a way to facilitate development without causing long term issues but it can feel onerous and can be a bit annoying on top of everything else. But tbh you should budget part of your cost for this kind of thing from the start (I would always advise a client to) as hopefully you won't need it but at least there is money in the pot from the start.

"we have had detailed structural drawings which we have submitted to them, which to be honest I don't think they understand"

Have you tried sitting down at a table with the plans, your neighbours and some tea and discussing it with them in great detail to allay their worries?

That's good advice wonkylegs, and consistent with what our surveyor advised when we extended using an existing party wall.

Ghanagirl - I think you are being unrealistic thinking that you wouldn't spend any of your £100k budget on ensuring you do no harm to your neighbours' property.

From memory we budgeted £1k for making good if needed, and also the cost of the surveyor to do the PWA properly - there's a report with lots of photos of neighbours' side of the wall before we did any work. This protects both of you.

If you don't want stress, then your best way to avoid it is to actually do this properly. Many people clearly don't do this, but then they don't really have a leg to stand on if their neighbours give them hassle.

Good luck - the building is going to be stressful enough without hassling like this over something that could be pretty easily avoided, for probably only 1-2% of your total budget.

Thanks for advice we did put aside about £800 for this but our builder thinks it might be more:( we did invite them round to discuss and her husband came with his builder friend and asked for additional structural drawings which we had done at a cost £1000 and since weve given them to the neighbours we have invited them back to talk it through but they keep coming up with excuses, I understand it's going to be disruptive for them but we've also endured building from neighbours when our twins were tiny and just put up with it, they didn't object when the council approved the plans because legally they have no grounds as we're end of terrace the other side were okay until she spoke to them then they had issues which have managed to resolve, I'm not a horrible person just out grown our house and can't really afford to move, if we did move the next owners might want to extend as well, just feeling frustrated and anxious about the whole process

With our extension I gave each of my neighbours copies of the planning drawings and then went to their houses and marked out with bamboo canes where each of the new bits would be, what they would see before during and after

an hour of being really polite
and making sure that when the knock throughs for the loft were done they were at work etc etc (ie treating them as human beings worthy of my respect) it all went swimmingly.

The MONTHS with no fences between our gardens went smoothly because we communicated
and the week that we had to borrow electricity and water from them, I hid a bottle of bubbly in their fridge while unplugging our extension leads.

Remember a party wall agreement can protect you too.

The surveyors take photographs inside the neighbours properties so every crack/ wonky floorboard/wall in the wall is recorded- this protects you as they can not at a later date say that your extension has caused problems to their property.

Unfortunately if your neighbour demands a party wall agreement you will have to pay for it but I think in the long run it can be a good thing.

We had a similar situation with our neighbours who had agreed to our extension before we even had planning permission (we showed them all the drawing and said we would not go ahead if they objected.)

One of these bloody "ambulance chasing" party wall surveyors sent all the neighbours one of these scare tactic letters which resulted in us having to get this agreement (although we did not choose the company who had sent the letter.)

It was a pain but I could see the value of it when I saw the photos of huge cracks in our neighbours newish patio and garden wall (built near where the foundations of our planned extension would be). Without this evidence they could have easily sued us for damgage and we would have been none the wiser.

If your neighbours are objecting they can get an injunction to stop the work but once a party wall agreement is in place they will have no powers.

Thanks for all your sound advice need to factor into the budget champagne flowers and chocolates! :)

I don't think your neighbours are being 'difficult' by asking for a PWA. It's there to protect both sides affected.

When they come to sell, they may be asked to provide evidence of a PWA.

and it has to be said that bottles of £15 Lidl champagne (£40 in any other shop) go a very long way.
The £300 I invested in fizz was some of the best money I spent.
When the plasterer leaves site, wrapping a bottle in silver foil and handing it to him ensures goodwill in a way that NOTHING else does

porkyandBess they haven't asked for it yet I'm presuming they will want which is fine as another mumsnetter pointed out it can protect both side the reason I say they are being difficult is that they have asked for extra drawings etc put every time hubby suggests they come and talk they make excuses and they have spoken to other neighbours to try and get them to also weigh in, we normally get on with them fine although I know she gets worked up about parking and suchlike

As a building owner, I have had lots of experience of PWAs. Built loft, doing a kitchen extension and a cellar conversion, all requiring PWAs with both neighbours.

You should insist on having PWA with photos etc and other specific requirements that you have (e.g working hours, access, making good, etc etc). This will form your civil and legal contract with the neighbour. After your PW surveyor has correctly served PW notice to neighbour, they have 14 days to respond. If they don't, the matter is automatically in dispute unless they respond and tell you they will appoint someone themselves. They have a further 14 days to apoint someone I think and after this your PW surveyor has the right to employ someone on THEIR behalf if they haven't named anyone.

To cut cost, you should persuade them to use your own PW surveyor, which is totally legit and he is independant looking after both your interests. This means you only pay for 1 surveyor not 2. Remember as building owner YOU are responsible for all costs of PWAs, making good, paying for their appointed engineer to check your plans, structural calculations, repairing damage that has been caused as a result of your development etc etc.

It also gives you the legal right to enter their property for doing the work by giving reasonable notice etc. Talk to them nicely but do all official work through your PW surveyor.

And yes it is impossible to stay 'friends' with your neighbours. I have fallen out with both of mine for now. Especially as one of them saw my works as an opportunity to improve their property at my expense and started to specify the most expensive bricks one can buy to build a section of wall that faces their house. I will never see this section of wall and was forced to meet their demands as they threatened to pull out of other agreements we had made so i saw it as an 'investment'.

The other neighbour complained to the council even though I had PP and now continue to find any opprtunity to whinge including telling my builders to stop work when I was away for the weekend threatening they will call Council - we were within oir legal rights to make noise until 1300h on Saturday.

All of this is after I had sent both neighbours, them full plans and PW agreements and gone round to talk to them a couple of times each.

In summary, PW agreements protect you,, they are worth teh money and if you ever sell the house, they will be required to be submitted with the deeds to the new owners.