Would it be foolish to buy a Grade II listed property with terrible energy efficiency rating?

[JaffaSnaffle]

Today, we went to view a beautiful house in a lovely village. It has enough space for my family.

The current owners had been away for the weekend, so I cannot tell if this was normal, but the house was cold. It is about 10 C here today.

There was no heating on. But it was impossible to tell whether the house was cold at any time the heating wasn't on, or if they had left heating off for days.

I am prepared for higher heating bills, but could not cope with a house that needs the heating on all the time not to be arctic.

Could I ask for people's experiences with heating very old, inefficient properties?

LOL@ "energy crises don't affect me as I use LPG" - is that in the same vein as "oil prices are irrelevant, I use electricity".

sigh LPG fuels the house under the OP's consideration.
The price of LPG may go up - but wind turbines are a side-issue. They do not constitute either the entirety of an energy crisis or of a response to it.

if you seriously wanted to improve the insulation, you could dryline the inside surface of the external walls using 50mm or so of rigid foam with a plasterboard finish. This would not affect the external apearance at all, and would be difficult to detect from inside. It would make the rooms a couple of inches narrower, although if it has walls with thick lime plaster, this could be removed to partially compensate.

This would make the house heat up very fast from cold since the cold external walls would not absorb the heat. It would pretty well obviate condensation, which is a common cause of damp.

I don't know if the listed status would make a difference.

I would be anxious about the sloping celings in the upstairs rooms. It is quite easy to insulate a sloping ceiling provided it is done before the ceiling is fitted (or while the roof is off). It is very difficult to insulate them when both the roof and the ceilings are already in place. With luck it will have been done during renovation.

I did what pigletjohn suggested - insulated walls from inside. Also got timber double-glazing which was acceptable in my area but may not be in yours. Insulated everywhere.

My house is toasty as a result. But I was doing a complete rip-out-and-start-again because the house was basically falling down. It may be too expensive if you are not doing that anyway.

I didn't know about inner wall insulation. Can I ask how much it cost??? I like the house I'm in and want to buy it but am costing up how much to make it energy efficient. It is a similar price range to OP so top of our budget.

Auntie, I'm not sure why you are sighing....I think the government is doing everything it can to hide the windfarm issue, lots of people in power have vested interests in all political parties. But it is happening and with our money....

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065360/Expect-gas-price-rises-warns-Energy-Minister-Huhne-insists-government-pin-increase.html

I work with listed buildings- doing what pigletjohn said is vvv unlikely to get permission. English heritage have published loads of stuff about warmth - might be worth having a look at their website. It's unlikely you would be able to get double glazing as it trashes the character of the original windows but secondary is usually ok. Older building need to breathe so putting up plasterboard and foam products can really harm a building and actually cause damp- ive seen building nearly at collapse due to ill thought out works. Floors are often laid over dirt and you can't usually get permission for taking them up - they are usually ok though!

Some of the comments here are hilarious- older buildings can be more efficient than newer ones!

If you do go ahead make sure you get a surveyor who deals with listed buildings and understands them- it will be worth every penny. Also SPAB do homeowner courses which are highly regarded- you should be able to google it.

Not sure at all about one of the comments relating to being made to do green improvements but listed buildings do get exemptions from building regulations etc and I've certainly not heard of it!

One piece of advice is if you want to change a house to make it more up to modern standards- ie want double glazing and a super warm house don't buy a listed building, they aren't for you. If you can live with the quirks then go for it.

One other thing is that any works you do without listed building consent are a criminal offence and you can be fined. Also you can be made to correct unauthorised works that pervious owners did, so if you do go ahead check with the planning department that permission was granted for any work that looks modern.

True, older buildings sometimes were made better, my flat in London was listed and toasty warm even with huge sash windows. I would disagree about floor over earth not being a problem though, having lived in a house with it. I would say it depends what the earth is sitting on. It was very cold but we were only few meters above the water table. My friends houses with those types of floors struggle to keep their feet warm and certainly it's not nice for babies to crawl on. Okay with very fluffy slippers but for all we know the OP wants to parade arounds in nothing but nail polish. Good Luck with your house hunt, hope you love your new home wherever it is !

Thank you for all your helpful comments. They have helped to focus our attention on what might be involved. We are going to see the house again later in the week. I will keep you posted!

Also ring the local council, planning dept with a list of questions after you have visited.

Can we do X, can we do why...etc

Different councils have different thoughts about Grade 2. (regardless of the actual law)

Hard to say how much it cost because it was part of a whole house renovation with every floor and ceiling being ripped out and every wall and window repaired/replaced! It's not particularly complicated though so not a big deal like having a new central heating system or something - it's just slapping insulation on the walls and plastering over, effectively.

We haven't had any problems with damp or condensation. I think a decent builder takes into account the need for ventilation.

I don't see why it wouldn't get permission - in my house the outside is listed but the inside was all 70s horror so nothing to preserve.

drylining will reduce or prevent condensation on the walls, as the warm moist internal air cannot come into contact with the brickwork. Changing the windows or adding secondary glazing will usually prevent draughts and cut adventitious ventilation so you have to take extra care to ventilate, especially bathrooms and kitchens, but also bedrooms, and if you have a stone floor on earth, or an old concrete floor with no dpm, quite a lot of damp will come up through it. Some people who have not grasped the importance of ventilation think that modern windows cause damp; what they actually do is prevent the moisture caused in some other way from getting out. Open fireplaces cause a lot of ventilation, but also heat loss as the airflow is uncontrolled.

If the walls are damp for some other reason, such as leaking gutters or downpipes, it needs to be addressed. The outside surface of the wall needs to be free to lose moisture to the air, some modern renders or paint systems can prevent this.

I live in a 2* listed timber framed house. We have put solar panels on frames in the grounds (with planning permission) and being able to have heating on during the day without worrying about the cost of oil is lovely. You do adapt though and it's years since any of us suffered from a cold or winter sniffles.

Margo, sounds like you has a v understanding conservation officer. All your house will be listed but if it did have a 70's makeover it more understandable. Depending on the construction though you do normally need to let buildings breathe. But just because you did it to yours doesn't mean it's the same for all listed houses!

Ps, I would also advocate panels freestanding in th garden or on an outbuilding. Hope the second visit has gone well op!

I've lived 2 places like this. A flat in a block with a listed exterior and not inside (it was some fancy brickwork that meant it was listed and we had listed, but invisible chimneys - you could literally only see them from a helicopter but they were listed so had to be preserved although of course no one used them), and then my house which was 70s horror inside so nothing to save as I said. I didn't realise it was unusual.

there are lots of changes you can make just with furnishings -

thick, lined carpets are an insulator in themselves
as are thick heavy full length curtains, and door curtains (if appropriate to situation)
rugs over hard floors

LPG at least you don't have to run using muscle...

if the house is in the South and in a sheltered location energy bills are less of a worry than if, say, you were in the wilds of Scotland...
really it would depend how much i loved the house! grade II listed may mean other costs in terms of upkeep, (such as thatched roof, etc) that need consideration..

If you love it, I would probably go for it and not worry.

My PILs had a house like that one for a few years and they used a log burner alongside CH which kept the place so warm that I used to dress in layers in winter, so I could lose some as the visit progressed!

The bedrooms were chilly but not arctic.

just looked at the link - bloody hell that's lovely!

windows not huge either.. though i think if they are wood they will need someone to get around and paint them (once every two years? have seen paint on wood windows go rubbish that fast)..

buy it, you know you want to.

Well, I have some rubbish news. Quite narked to be honest. Turned up at the house this evening, toddler in tow, husband straight of work... And the sellers opened the door and said they have already accepted an offer yesterday.

But I wanted to thank you all for your comments. They have been so useful. It is just good to get an insight into living in a house like that one when you have no practical experience.

I an just disappointed that it is to no avail. It's a lovely house though. Gutted like a kipper.

Commiserations!
There will be other houses. Better luck with the next one.

Having looked at the details, I see it's been on for a while and has come down in price by around £50k. Maybe people have been put off for some reason, in which case you might find this 'sale' doesn't go ahead. I'd let the agent know you'd still be interested if things don't work out. Good luck.

Oh, bad luck! We had not one but two people say that 'they'd decided not to sell' their houses, just when we were on the verge of putting in an offer. But as everyone says, you end up with a house that is just as good in the end.

Don't touch with a barge pole unless you have the finances to redo everything if needed..... Floors,windows,doors etc etc. if previous owners have not done their renovations to regulations you will also need to redo their work. But if you love it.......and have the finances......

My late Grandmother's house is a gorgeous Grade 2 listed cottage. I spent much of my childhood there and it was always warm and cosy. When the EPC was done recently it got a 1 which was the lowest I have ever seen! Yet my own 70s house is far, far colder, I can put the heating on for hours and the heat just disappears. I know which I prefer..

Had the EPC done for my house yesterday and was talking to the assessor. I said that I never over-concerned myself with energy and CO2 ratings when I was looking at houses to buy, and he said you might not now, but you will in the future, as councils are going to be forced to base their council tax rates on the basis of the existing council tax band (A-G) and EPC rating (A-G) - i.e. an x-y graph, meaning big but efficient houses will pay less for council tax than small inefficient houses.

Also, when you do make any improvements, make sure you keep hold of any certificates etc. Our house has cavity wall installation, but because it is rendered, no injection holes could be seen, and we had lost the certificate/invoice, the assessor had no choice but had to grade us as if we didn't have it.