Renegotiating after survey

[Levantine]

So we have finally found a house, it needs work doing on it, we are paying cash and need to be in by the end of March or go into rented

It is chain free, owned by a company who bought it from an old lady in some sort of part exchange deal, so should be possible

We got the survey back today thoug and it needs loads more doing than we had realised -
new boiler (we knew about), new radiators, new gutters, some part of the roof replacing, other parts repaired, flat roof on the extension replacing. Possible re-wiring and there is a little bit of damp, probably due to an overflowing gutter, but the surveyor says it needs checking out in case it indicates a faulty damp proof course

However, the surveyor valued it at exactly what we paid for it, despite it needing far more extensive work than the EA had indicated and than we had thought

How should we go about negotiating here? We would walk away I think if we can't get any money off, it is a head not a heart house, but it is a great street on the doorstep of a very very popular school and there will be a queue of other people wanting to buy it

Also, am I obliged to show the estate agent the survey?

You need to know how much the work will cost, some of that sounds expensive, then decide what you're really willing to pay for this house, all things considered.

But, it might be worth asking whether the vendor will consider negotiating based on survey information, as, if they won't, there's no point wasting time getting quotes.

Mortgage surveys generally do arrive at the same value as your offer - a house is only worth what someone is willing to pay after all - and they are just saying that they are still willing to finance their part of it (if you are paying a big deposit that's not much risk to them, as they will be able to recover their bit whatever happens).

The survey is yours, you should give a copy to your solicitor, not show anyone else - except quoting the relevant bits when you write to ask for a price reduction of course.

Thank you, yes, we knew it needed work, but it is in quite good decorative order (though not to our taste) so we thought it mainly cosmetic

the first question is whether the house is competitively priced. was it a full structural survey ordered by you personally (in which case you actually cannot disclose the report to the third party)? was it possible to anticipate some/all of the issues mentioned? did they give any indication themselves that extra remedial work might be required?

we successfully negotiated a chunk off the price of our house on the back of the survey, but we were also in a very good position to buy plus anybody in our shoes would have done the same as the problems were not obvious during the viewing.

if you plan your approach very carefully, lay down all the issues, rough estimates and point out that they will have a discussion like that with anyone going through the motions and be open to discussion (not confrontation "all or nothing") there is a good chance you succeed.

Oops, realised that those details make the house googlable so will report that post

gist is that it has been maintained and loved by prevoius owners, with some updating required

bemybebe, did you get contractors out to provide quotes, or did you negotiate on teh back of your guesstimates?

thank you so much both of you for such great advice

if it is realistically priced you have less scope for negs, so put as much effort into arguing your case as possible. appear fair and realistic, not opportunistic or unreasonable. especially emphasize that any other serious buyer will come against consideration that you are facing, so finding a buyer per se does not mean they will not face the same discussion with someone instead of you should they be unduly rigid.

write a letter to the vendor if you are not dealing with them directly, do not let the ea say anything "on your behalf" - put every word in writing and insist they pass the written message. ea may say they don't "do it", but they will have to if you insist.

Thanks. So I should ring Estate Agent, have a brief conversation with them re what they think the vendor will do and then arrange for some quotes re the work? The EA will have to give tradespeople access to quote anyway.

Then put a revised offer in in writing after the quotes?

Depends on your survey. Ours was a full structural survey and the surveyor told us roughly what expected expenditure would be. We then called the ea and said that the survey discovered a number of issues and we need to reassess. We then wrote a two-page letter with abstracts from the survey (surveyor did not allow to show the full report but allowed abstracts) and said that we think it will cost us at least "blah", then we said we really like the house and open ot negotiation, but we won't pay the original price under any circs as in light of the issues it is unreasonable and they will face it with any other buyer. You get the gist. Emailed the letter to EA, who appeared to be shocked, called straight away to put pressure on us, but we said we would like to have a constructive feedback from the seller or we walk away. They (EA) then said that they do not allow "direct negotiation", which was fine, but we just wanted the evidence that the vendor seen our letter. in the end the seller was very reasonable and we arrived to mutually acceptable lower price.

Thanks. Really really helpful xx

Our structural surveys gave approximate costs for some jobs, not others. Bear in mind what they surveyor can and can't see e.g. they don't go onto roofs, just look from ground and inside, so roof work could be more extensive than they can see and can be very expensive, so worth getting a contractor to quote.

I'd take 'some updating' to mean decorative things, kitchen units etc, not underlying problems arising because of lack of maintenance, which is what you are facing. The EA's description and what you saw led you to believe the house had been well maintained. That's not the case. There is an important distinction between maintenance and improvement. So your offer was on the basis of good maintenance and condition but now you've discovered otherwise.

We had to back out of one sale after finding similar things and getting quotes, then our vendor wouldn't budge, as they confused maintenance with improvement and either wouldn't recognise that they hadn't maintained the house adequately or mistakenly believed their house was worth the same as others in much better condition on the same street. They weren't in a huge rush to move and we'd have saved time if we'd asked after the survey (maybe even before), if they were likely to be willing to negotiate, as we'd have walked away rather than seeking quotes.

Wishing you all the luck! Btw, it is much easier buying with your head, at least you do not get emotionally drained and a lot less likely to act on impulse.

So your surveyor has basically said that, even with all issues he has identified, the house is still worth the price you have offered.
But what you would actually like is money off to correct issues which seem to have already been accounted for in the price.
There's nothing wrong with haggling but it sounds as though you're just looking for money off and trying to justify with a list of desirable repairs which any purchaser may want to do but which have already been accounted for in the asking price and valuation provided for by your surveyor.
Your surveyor hasn't said it's worth any less as a result of the problems - in fact, it's still worth what you offered.
Although you, the purchaser, didn't see these problems when you viewed the property - it doesn't automatically follow that you should then get a reduction in price. You just didn't see the problems and didn't know the cost of fixing them.
Fair do's, go for it - there's no harm in asking - but it doesn't sound as though you have any sincere justification for a reduction.

I disagree actually, the place was marketed as being well maintained and that isn't the case. It's got damp, dodgy guttering, and two roofs in need of work.

The surveyor has valued it at what we had agreed to pay for it. It isn't worth that to us given the issues that have come to light - to fix those and then modernise the house too would take us over the ceiling price of what houses in that road go for.

That's your call. It's always your decision. Sounds like you think you offered too much and now you're backtracking.
The surveyor has given you a valuation which is the same as what you offered regardless of the problems - you now understand the amount of work that needs doing and you no longer fancy it.
Why not just back out?
I'm not having a poke at you but you're implying the estate agent and/or the vendor pulled the wool over your eyes regarding the condition of the property.
But if you really believed and were relying on the marketing speel why did you get a surveyor in to check it - you're a cash buyer - you didn't have to - all of which suggests you suspected there may well have been problems that neither you, the vendor or the estate could see.
And there you are! There are extra problems, but even then the surveyor says it's still worth your offer price.
And the work the surveyor suggests is not compulsory - it's your choice whether you do it or not - it's worth what you offered anyway - even if you don't do the work.
Don't see what your beef is - you just want more money off - call a spade a spade.
The value of the house reflects its condition- as it is now, warts and all - they're not pretending it's a brand new house!
And you don't have any right to expect them to pay for you to bring it up to brand new standard. It's your choice to pay for any 'improvements' you want to make - and if those 'improvements' increase the value then good for you, you've made a profit.
If they don't improve the value, tough, that's life - it's nobody else's responsibility - nobody guarantees you a profit when you do a house up.

you sound like our buyers
please make sure that your surveyors report is 100% accurate. ours isn't, coincidently also states we have damp and a roof in need of work... (probably majority of on houses over 30 years old do, ours doesn't though so not sure where the surveyor got that).

This happened to us.

We realised the work we wanted to do would cost more than we had thought.

We told the vendors we were reducing our offer, because of the extra work needed.

They told us to get stuffed. Then they went and found another buyer who was willing to pay the price we'd originally offered. We lost the house.

Now, we didn't really mind, because we had already decided that we did not want to buy the house if it was only available at the original higher price.

What I'm saying is, be prepared that the vendor may well tell you to bugger off. They may well be able to find someone else who will pay the price (perhaps someone who underestimates the cost of the work needed, or perhaps someone willing to pay a premium to do a house up to their own taste).

It's nobody's "fault" that the work needed is more than you thought (not the estate agent's or anyone else's). This is exactly what surveys are for. In the end the only things that are relevant are what you are willing to pay and what the vendor is willing to accept.

Greentown the surveyor does not determine the price, the market does (ie a willing buyer and a willing seller agreeing to do a deal at the particular moment). Surveyor just report that similar properties go for XX amounts.

It is not fair to expect a 100+ yo house to have a brand new shining roof, but it is also not reasonable to buy something that immediately requires high investment in order to keep the property in good state of repair. Failing roof should be fixed or some amount taken off if the house is priced fairly. If the price is already reduced due to these consideration it is unreasonable to push for further reduction, but this is not OP's situation as I read it. And of course there is a risk that the seller says no.

I think everyone thought it was well maintained. It looks it, very clean, garden cared for, new light switches etc. I don't think the ea was trying to pull a fast one.

I would imagine that the company that bought the house from the old lady did a deal they were happy with. If they don't like what we are proposing they can and will say no. No one will be upset.

Minipie, I think there is a chance that that will happen to us and greentown I take your point about not expecting everything to be done to a modern standard, we might take out the radiators on that basis

Will update in due course!

I think your posts are a bit on the harsh side, greentown. The OP sounds reasonable to me and really quite measured.

OP your middle way of negotiating a lower offer sounds entirely sensible. If they don't bite, then fine, they don't bite. So you'll lose the cost of the survey. Better that than finding yourselves in over your heads.

Some things (roofing, failing damp-proof course) cannot realistically be spotted by a layperson during a half-an-hour walkaround. That's what surveyors are for.

For sure the co buying off the old lady will have got a good deal, and replacement light switches could actually feasbily be someone trying to make the place look as if it didn't need a rewire. It's been known....

Best of luck OP.

Oooh - the lightswitches could be couldn't they

I think this company are quite probably dodgy as f**k and I'm sure the old lady was done over. Her garden is so lovely and looked after and the house does feel loved iyswim. The neighbour said that she had gone to live with friends so I hope she is okay

We have toned down our email somewhat, so even though I agree that greentown was a bit harsh, their posts were quite useful

I'm interested to know why you can't share a survey's results with EAs and vendors?

I don't know if you cannot in all cases. In our case there was a clause about survey not for sharing with the third parties, so we asked and got permission to use abstracts. That was back in 2003, things may have changed since.