Listed building, stairs too steep and dangerous, planners say no. Anything we can do? Feeling low today

[Staverton]

We are about to exchange on a grade 2 listed terrace which requires complete renovation. It has the most dangerously steep stairs. The treads are just 18cm, which is 7cm less than required for current health and safety standards. With two young dc and plans to
have a 3rd there is no way we can live with them.

There are about 15 other similar cottages in the road under the same listing. Over half of them have changed the stairs. I spoke to a conservation officer on Friday, and she is coming out tomorrow to the property. She basically said no way can we change the stairs. They are stricter now, it's part of the character of the house etc etc even though listing only mentions the outside.
I could (and have) cry. We have already spent money on the solicitor, architect etc etc.

Any advice?

Take a deep breath.

Now, as the house is very old I assume tons of children have managed quite happily up and down those stairs, as will yours.

If you love the house I would go with it. Put good stairgates up and teach your children to climb as soon as you can. They are tiny for such a short time, you may really regret passing on the house for such a minor problem in the great scheme of things.

Anyway, wait until the conservation office has been.

Thanks for your reply!
It's not just the kids it's our parents and us. They are so steep you fall backwards when you walk up them as the majority of your foot isn't on the step.
The last lady had a stair lift

Meet with the conservation lady. Ask her what can be done, what advice they can offer. I live in a Grade II listed property, which has had quite a bit of work done on it (before I moved in). The conservation officers can be your best friends in this sort of case, if you approach them in a 'how can we fix this so we are both happy?' fashion rather than more gung-ho. Work with them, and see what they say. Also, it's worth mentioning the changes to the other houses - OK they are more strict now but there's precedent there!

There are no guarantees, but DH and I have found that this approach works best with our conservation people (including the tree preservationists, if the Grade II listing wasn't enough!).

Also my dd is a climber and fearless (bad combination) and will climb over any stairgate

I second HarrySantaatemygoldfish's advice - it may seem a big problem now, but it's amazing how quickly you'll get used to the narrow treads. If they can't be changed, do what you can to make them safer - ie, a second bannister at child height, for example.

Thank you
Yes I'm def going to be very nice to her tomorrow. I have knocked on doors and know who has changed them (some without permission)
I think we would pull put despite £££ spent as someone will fall down them. Also I think it will become an unsellable house when we finally come to sell.

It is bonkers

What about putitng on those deep ridged tread edgings you get in public buildings?

Someone (probably on here) once said never buy a listed building unless you would be prepared to live in it as it is, because you can never count on getting the listed building approval, even if the conservation officer has seemed positive about it in advance.

If it was me I would probably be inclined to not worry too much about the children, but think about keeping the (or getting a better) stair lift for the parents. One of my friends has a stair lift (because she's disabled) and it is really not that obtrusive.

You are right to be cautious about resale though. My old house was a terrace with very steep stairs and several of my many viewers cited them as the reason why they didn't want to buy it.

I grew up with a staircase like this with a beautiful, but deadly traditional radiator at the bottom to crack your head open on when you fall. My parents retained a stairgate at the top till they left the house when I was 31 to remind everyone to proceed with care. We moved to the house when I was 8 and we only had one accident in the 27 years and actually it occurred because my sister was playing a silly game on the stairs - she was 13 at the time and should have know better.
You do get used to them the more you travel up and down them and the feeling you are going to fall does lessen the more you use them.

Sorry just a quick reply but about to head out the door thanks so much for replies will read in detail in a bit
Stairlift has gone and staircase also v narrow so it looked really obtrusive

I hate to be the voice of doom and gloom but i am renting a very old house which is also listed and also has a ridiculous set of stairs in them as you describe. They are also oak and and have a turn in them. They look beautiful and in keeping with the house.

BUT I fell down them a month ago (no alcohol involved) and hurt myself very badly. I can't wait till we move out.

Sorry, thats probably not what you wanted to hear, but thats my experience.

I wonder if the increased strictness re listed buildings is one reason why period houses have got cheaper relative to newer ones in the last 25 years.

Someone (probably on here) once said never buy a listed building unless you would be prepared to live in it as it is, because you can never count on getting the listed building approval, even if the conservation officer has seemed positive about it in advance.

That was my sister (a conservation officer) via me - and I think it's good advice.

I should say that you seem to have a (very common) misunderstanding about listed buildings. People always think that only the outside is listed, and you can do whatever you like with the inside. That's not the case at all - the inside is listed as well as the outside, so the people who have changed theirs without permission have broken the law, and could have been legally required to rebuild them as they should have been. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen occasionally. (My sister says that if they get the feeling someone is starting to damage the historic fabric of their house by unauthorised changes, they may move to upgrade the listing a notch, so from Grade 2 to 2 Star.)

On the other hand, as Poledra says, talking to the conservation officer will often result in a solution that everyone is fairly happy with.

Don't forget that if you need LBC for the stairs, at least you'll get VAT off!

It is perfectly possible to challenge the opinion of the conservation officer.

I have been successful (admittedly on a very small number of cases) where, in spite of initial advice from the CO that works would not be permitted, I have managed to obtain permission for alterations.

COs do not have the final say in Listed Building applications and appeals are possible.

This, however can be a long and expensive process but given that several similar cottages have received approval you have at least a chance. This is provided (a) the status has not changed - as mentioned above by GrendelsMum and (b) you are willing to compromise on the detail i.e. to accept as a final solution stairs that may be somewhere between the existing and your ideal.

"That's not the case at all - the inside is listed as well as the outside, so the people who have changed theirs without permission have broken the law, and could have been legally required to rebuild them as they should have been. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen occasionally."

IME round where I live, the local conservation officer does nothing where internal changes have been done on the quiet but just waits for a new buyer to come along and unsuspectingly buys the house. Then the conservation officer pounces and forces them to rebuild/reverse any unauthorised changes.

In one case near me, an old lady ripped out the Georgian staircase because it was too steep for her. When she died, the house was sold and the new owner was told (after she had bought the house) that she had to have a hand made Georgian replica staircase fitted. The conservation officer knew full well that the old lady had no money to do the work so he just waited for a new buyer who had money.

To be frank, I would leave the staircase as it is. Your family will get used to it. Just fit stairgates top and bottom.

What would happen if you just replaced them? Who would know? Could you keep the originals elsewhere (where?) and put them back if you ever sold house/got told off?

said - that is exactly what people do round where we live. The problem only comes to light when a new owner asks for planning permission to add an extension, etc. Once they do that, the sky falls on them as the planning officer comes to inspect and finds a whole load of unauthorised changes.

We live in an old terrace with 19cm treads and have three kids. The 5 and 3 year old have always been fine with them (3rd is baby). They have also both fallen down the stairs when larking about and not been injured though obviously to be avoided. They are just used to them and know how to walk up and down them safetly.

No advice, only our experience to share. We lived in a house like this, and both DH and I both fell several times, it was not nice. We always wore sensible slippers with backs to help minimise the chance of it.

It was not a problem for the DCs, as they are smaller I guess and we were the first people I knew to get rid of stair gates as we trained the babies to go up and down them from as soon as they could move themselves so that if we ever left a gate open they would not start climbing and then fall back.

We did get used to it and were reminded when visitors had a sharp intake of breath. I used to 'overstep' when I went round other people's houses too.

You ll adapt if you dont change them, I promise you! Our stairs are like this, and we all said initially we felt like we were going to fall backwards! Nobody has fallen, young or old, and I can negotiate them even at night without a light on

Just a thought. Would it be possible to install new and more generous stairs on top of the old narrow stairs? In other words you would leave the old staircase in place but then install a shallower staircase in front and surrounding it, hiding it but preserving it underneath. Hard to explain without drawing but hopefully you see what I mean.

That might possibly satisfy the listed building officers (because the old feature is preserved and can be revealed in future if desired)?

To be fair - the house had the stairs when you originally viewed it, and I would hazard a guess you knew it was listed.

The tread on ours in 20cm. TBH I've never even thought about the steepness of them, as loads of houses round here are the same and I'm used to it. It's certainly never a problem.
I can imagine how 2cm might make quite a difference though.