how to avoid being messed around (or used) by EAs? I'm getting paranoid!

[passionsrunhigh]

Sorry a bit long, getting very stessed out!
Been trying to buy a flat over the last few months. Found two I liked within the last month, and offered on first one (which came on first), got outbid but then buyers pulled out after two weeks and i incerased my offer to the point where EA said they may accept (though lower than their first ungenuine offer was) - I'm in a great position, no chain, no mortgage so though it was reasonable to offer a few thousand less than previous (who pulled out anyway). Seller still put it back on market and after two weeks there were three offers - all were asked to submit their best. I came up to just two k under previous, same as second buyer as it turned out, but the new third one outbid me again by about two k I imagine (ea very vague but it sounded like vrey small difference) - I was interested for a month, and i feel i wasjust used to bump up the price.
How on earth do I know what to bid in such 'blind' situation?? I wouldn't want to outbid everyone considerably (even if i could - in this case it was my top give or take 2K) but if I knew what exactly the highest was so at least could offer same as I'm in best position - but without knowing I don't want to offer more than everyone!
The other flat - it was just pain lying from EA ( who was a bit more open about level of bids), where i was seller's number one buyer, then it was just two of us competing, and EA didn't tell me as agreed when the sellers offer on their house got accepted (without it sale wouldn't happen) - they let the other buyer know who stayed at his offer and got survey done - though i told EA that i can increase to asking price on the day their offer gets accepted! I called after a week of silence only to find out the other buyer has done the survey! WTH? he still lied it's not too late, so i offered - but then the buyer who done survey just had to be pushed to raise his by 2k! what bloody blatant users these EAs are! Will i ever buy at this rate - I'm getting very dispirited! rthough i was in a good position and will be easy - such in expensive rental after 4 months of search..Is it the case that EAs help investors out and trick others?
Any tips please?

p,s, what i also meant by the first example - once you submit 'your best' and someone outbids you by 2K, say, why EA don't give you an option to still outbid? that's what happened when i was selling in london, very open between buyers. In this impossible situation, EA just picks the highest and that's it!?! even if I was given a chance to come up to same level, I might be chosen as am in v.good position, but I can't just blindly outbid people by 5K if not neccessary.

Maybe you could try and build up rapport with the EA. Tell them your highest limit. Explain situation again and keep ringing. I've realized (have just moved after selling old place and buying new place) that you really need to be on the ball too. Keep calling and chasing.

Good luck.

How frustrating... I'm afraid, however, that the "offers over system" (blind bids) is often used (particularly in a buoyant market) and in fact until the downturn has been the way that traditionally all property transactions were done here in Scotland.

Sorry to hear you've lost two properties in this way - it sounds as though you've been VERY unlucky to be competing with other interested parties at the same time.

I have to say I don't think the EA did anything wrong in the first example - it's very difficult, but the alternative to that scenario would have been the dreaded bidding war and personally I think it's good to just avoid that. The vendors could have been unscrupulous and just said they wanted everyone to bid against each other, but you would have been dangling on the phone, taking the EA's word for it that everyone had bid whatever he/she said - it would have been hideous.

The second situation is a bit less clear. Was your offer the same as the other offer? It really does seem very bad luck that there has always been another party involved at the exact point you want to make your offer. We were just in this situation and the agent wouldn't tell me the other offers either, but he did say that he had advised all three to offer pretty much what they were prepared to pay. He then put forward our 'cases' (including our circumstances) to the vendors and the vendors made their choice. Luckily we were the highest bidders by a small margin, but it could equally have gone the other way. I am also highly suspicious of these situations because you only have the EAs word that there are other bidders out there in the first place. We nearly pulled out entirely when he said there were other offers on the table.

Hope you have better luck next time - IME the normal run of events is to be the only person offering and the offer is taken entirely on its own merits.

Oh I hate "best and final" or "sealed" bids scenarios. But it is a perfectly legitimate thing to do, however awful it is for buyers. EAs use this tactic when they have more than one bidder because they know it will encourage everyone to go up just that little bit more in order to beat the others.

It is very hard to know what to bid. The only advice I can give you in that sort of scenario is that you should bid the maximum you feel comfortable bidding. Then if you don't get it, you can at least tell yourself that you wouldn't have wanted to pay more anyway. Yes it means you might "overpay" in the sense that, if you get it, you might have been way ahead of the other bidders - but in that situation you will have got the property, at a price you felt comfortable with, so perhaps that is worth the risk that you "overpaid" a bit.

On the second example, it does sound a bit dodgy, sounds like the EA decided that one buyer was enough and so didn't call you because they thought adding you into the picture would just complicate things. I've had a very similar thing happen to me - a seller who was maybe selling maybe not, so not doing viewings - I asked to be told if they decided to sell - EA never told me and next thing I knew the property was under offer to someone else .

However, as lottie says, both these are relatively unusual scenarios. Good luck!

thank you for replies!
drcrab, with the first agent I've been looking for few months and I see most properties through them (they have the biggest choice) so I kind of did build rapport, and that flat remains my favourite of all i saw before and since - I was there when it fell through first time, offering - whereas the winning bidder was new, thought it was a bit unfair, especially as i srtetched right to my max with my offer but would go another 1-2K - which i wasn't given a chance to do.
londonlottie - yes, bidding wars aer not pleasant, but this agent is not dishonest to the point of making up othre offers - they are the ones i use most, and kind of thought they'd be helpful because of this and the fac that i was in the best position. It's better to be offered to at least come level with a buyer who outbid by 2K, than miss the chance altogether - of course if it's beyond your bunget you can always stop bidding, but I would stretch another 1-2, if he told me (he know I've been looking for a while!). I think the highest bids are the worst sa you've no idea what others bid and you don't want to offer well above everyone - do you see my point? I find that in london when i was selling, the system was much better - when i was selling, all people submitted bids, but then EA said to the highest three that tey have a last chance, and one raised his offer, while others stopped. That's much more fair isn't it? buyers wouldn't bid more than they can in the end.
I don't know about unlucky - there is always competition for flats in good location especially 2-3 beds - unless something is wrong (like basement floor - plenty of those - or needs complete refurb). So far any good flat I've seen had interest from several people. I feel like hte only way to avoid competition is to compromise stongly, but I'd prefer just being given 100% chance.
The second flat, londonlottie, we were 2k apart (mine lower) to start with but the buyer still considered me as I was in better position - I said clearly to EA that I will raise my offer to match the other one even (that's what vendors asked saying that then they will chose me), once i hear that their offer on a house is accepted (because if not they said it will be months and months to find smth else) - and their offer was accepted after a few days but EA never told me, so the other buyer went ahead! He lied about leaving a voicemail (never mentioned it first, but only when i strarted complaining)- I never received it, and i double checked all my messages) - also in this situations surely it's wirth giving another call - he never did anything, he also lied about the day when their house offer was excepted, changed te story when i pressed him (it happebed days ago). He also pushed the other guy who did survey to raise his offer to asking price, purely by making me increase but knowing that he will increase after getting involved (and that i wouldn't get it anyway at this stage). I was VERY angry with him, but couldn't do anything!

partridge - yes I never understood how does anyone manage to bid correctly in scotland - aer they not giving a chance either to increase later?

minipie - thank you. The point is, hwat is comfortable? of course paying your absolute maximum is not comfortable by definition - in both flats, especially the first some work neede doing (not major but still, dated shower, floors etc) so paying absolute max meantt not doing the work anytime soon. So of course i was trying not to offer max, but nearly went to it, I offered in the end what EA said they'd be happy with. Someone obv offered about 2 more, but I still think that as the buyer who was looking for a while, and who was keen on this vrey flat over a month with the first falling out, EA could give me a last chance to raise by couple of thousand? As i say, that's what happened when i was selling in London and everyone submitted sealed bids, but they still gave people a chance.
Also with sealed bids what often happens is that the highest bidder is way above purely as they wanttto secure it, and then they start dropping the price afterwards (or after survey - when there are no problems) - this happened also whe i was selling, but then we negotiated a bit below their offer but still above all others. Maybe this is the tactic to use?? I wouldn't want to, but in a way, you still end up agreeing price with seller above others but not way above).

Nope. It's a bit of a lottery traditionally, although in this market many more things are fixed price - the home report has really helped prevent people bidding way over the odds (by giving a realistic estimate of value).

Once you make an offer it is binding though, so no chance of negotiating after the closing date.

Best of luck.

"when i was selling in London and everyone submitted sealed bids, but they still gave people a chance"

Hmm, they shouldn't have done that really. Sealed bids IME means you have one chance and one chance only, no overbidding after that. The idea is that people give their highest because they know there won't be a second chance.

Yes, agree some people bid high to win and then drop their offer later. But then you run the risk of the seller saying "well in that case I'm going to forget about you and go with the next highest bidder instead". And in the meantime the bidder has spent on lawyers and surveys etc.

You can, in theory, submit a sealed bid which says "2k more than the highest offer up to a maximum of £X". Known as a reference bid or something like that. However many EAs won't accept this kind of bid and they will say so when they ask for sealed bids.

"Comfortable" is very subjective, I guess it's "price at which you wouldn't feel scared/overly stretched financially/like you should have bought something else instead". In a situation with lots of a competing buyers, like you are in, I suspect the successful buyer is always going to end up feeling slightly uncomfortable with the price they paid as you always have to go that little bit further than you would have liked ... I definitely feel we paid a bit too much for the place we bought (in a competitive market), but on the other hand, we can afford it (albeit it means delaying other things) and we had missed out on other properties by being more cautious and I suspect the seller would not have accepted less... so not necessarily the wrong decision.

Very good points minipie. I can't help feeling that way too (we were the highest bidder out of three) - ie. a bit disgruntled that we paid more than we would have liked, in our case by 15k. However, I am completely smitten by the house so am trying not to focus on that bit!

The thing is passions - you think they should come back to you and ask if you'll increase your bid. Why shouldn't they then go back to the others and ask if they'll outbid you again? Why should the final bid be yours? Or do you think that everyone should be allowed to bid until no-one else is in the game?

londonlottie
Yes, I think EAs should give a chance at least the highest three bidders to raise, especially if they know that some are in better position to proceed (like can complete in 4-6 weeks like i could) they could just say 'you were still marginally outbid, but if you come up to the same price sellers might prefer you' - of course if the hoghest bid way above others, no point then. I just really loved the flat and i still feel i wasn't given a fair chance (other buyers might feel the same) - people indeed should bid until noone left, or offer much higher in sealed bids - that's what happened when i was selling and i was very happy as a seller with that. I insisted that EA gave everyone plenty of chances within at least the day or two from the best bids day. Also as a seller i would prefer a cash buyer to a mortgage one even if 1-2 K less, or esp if the same offer!
mimipie - yes, I'll take on board your last paragraph - I was being a bit cautious as i wanted to save for some work - but it looks like you have to grab it whatever the compromise, as nothing aas good apperaed on the market since - though if it does, I'll probably be only pleased that i didn't overspend..but it's the whole not knowing the future/can't plan/stuck in rental that's so stressful. I was worried that i might get carried away and seriously overspend - the problem there also was a long chain! it could ve been also long rental involved on top of over spending. If no chain, I would have offered that little bit more in sealed bids. Yoyr house was probably no chain? as 15K is a lot!

passions the thing is, if bidders have the chance to raise their bid even after the sealed bid stage, that has 2 downsides for the seller (1) it takes longer (some sellers just want to get under offer asap and not have rounds of negotiation, esp if they are looking to buy themselves and need to be under offer to be in a good position to buy) and (2) if bidders know they can come back with a higher offer later, then where is their incentive to bid high in the sealed bid stage? The main advantage of sealed bids for a seller is that people know it's their last chance and so they go all-out.

We were also cautious when bidding in a "sealed bid" scenario last year - also because the place needed lots of work doing! - and we were outbid by quite a lot! And I agree it's so frustrating not knowing what will come on the market next week or next month. I think all this is probably why it took us nearly 2 years to buy a place (with prices rising all the time)! With hindsight, we should have been less cautious at the beginning, been willing to pay a bit more, and bought something earlier.