Listed buildings - what are the rules?

[OTheHugeManatee]

DP (soon to be DH) and I just viewed an AMAZING property that we both adored. Thing is, it's Grade II listed and needs some work to be really perfect.

Can anyone advise me on what you can/can't change in a listed building? Is it just the exterior, or are there problems with replacing knackered floorboards or adding/moving bathrooms?

Are we about to make life very difficult for ourselves?

TIA

It's not a nightmare (generally) as long as you are improving, but there are various hoops to go through and it can take a bit of time to get all the approvals etc. There are certain restrictions on the interior as well as exterior.

Just call your listed building people at the relevant council, explain the types of things you are thinking about. They are normally pretty helpful.

Depending what you are doing, you may need planning permission as well.

There's a widespread misunderstanding that only the exterior is listed. In fact, the interior and exterior are both listed.

As AnonymousBird says, the listed building people are generally very helpful - but never forget that their priority is the building, not your lifestyle. They don't give two hoots if your family needs a bigger bathroom. Their responsibility is the building.

Listed buildings have the concept of 'repairs' and 'alterations'.

Repairs are officially fixing something damaged using the same materials that are presently there - so if you replace a knackered floorboard with a similar floorboard, that's a repair.

Alterations are changing what is there. So adding a bathroom is an alteration. Changing a bathroom is an alteration. These need Listed Building Consent, which is like planning permission, but for listed buildings. You have to put in an application and wait two months for permission, which may or may not be granted.

Just updating an existing kitchen or a bathroom doesn't need LBC

Technically, if you repair something with different materials, even if the materials are the original ones that should be there, that is an alteration. So we are going to replace the cement render on the outside of our house with lime render. This is entirely correct, and we all know it won't be refused, but we must apply.

You can do your own applications for listed building consent, or get an architect to do it. If you've got the money, I suggest getting an architect to do the applications, as it's a real hassle.

There is a point at which the conservation officer may stare at you meaningfully and say 'that's a repair, okay? A repair'. Do not stand there saying 'no, I think it's an alteration, so we should be putting in for listed building consent'. They are trying to save you and them a lot of work.

I should say that buying a listed building in bad repair is astonishingly expensive. We had not one but two surveys by specialist surveyors, and there were still a lot of problems they didn't find. You really shouldn't do it without having a large contingency fund (£25k at least?). If you want to discuss finances, please send me a PM and I'll talk about our budget so far. You MUST get competent, specialist people (we had the sodding electrician who ruined our plaster, for example) who are experienced in working with old buildings, and they must use the right materials.

My sister is a CO and her advice (which I often post here) is that you should never buy a listed building without being happy to live there without making any changes to the layout.

HTH

Gosh, that was a bit long!

Many thanks for fantastically helpful replies.

It's not in bad repair in the sense that it has plaster falling off walls or has holes in the roof. It was extensively restored about 10 years ago using traditional methods (I gather that that owner eventually needed to sell as they bankrupted themselves doing the work ) and on first impressions looked pretty sound. When I say 'work needed' it's more along the lines of knackered floorboards, walls painted in weird colours, that kind of thing. The layout is fine, if a bit eccentric .

We saw it today and both fell in love with it a bit. Time to sleep on it and see how we feel when we go back to view again on Saturday...

Oh, it sounds in good nick if there are only decorative thins to be done. Obviously, if you like it, make sure you get a thorough survey by a specialist.

You do need to be a little careful with repainting the walls - I don't know how old the building is, but it may have lime plaster which needs to remain breathable to stop damp problems, in which case you need to stick with breathable paints / distempers. Ask the present owners. Plus if it has a lime render on the outside, you'll need to be thinking about getting another coat of limewash on that.

But still, you really do need the big contingency fund - you can't tell what was okay 10 years ago that has been gradually rotting away since....

I should warn you that our house looked nice on the surface!

Parts of the building are late C17, extended C18 I think. It's timber framed with variously brick and plaster infill, and AFAIK some of the walls are lime plastered. The exterior is brick, and painted white. Or maybe it's lime wash, I dunno.

Talking of render, do you know much about lime plaster and finishes? I gathered that some (or all, not sure) of the interior is done in lime plaster, and while bits of it have been painted some has been left a neutral beige colour with a kind of grainy/sandy texture. I don't know if you recognise the kind of finish I mean? And if so do you know if it can be changed?

It's OK to look at, but a bit drab and if we do buy the house I'd prefer it to be white. (I'm thinking of one room in particular, which would be my office as I work from home )

Thanks again for sharing your experience. I definitely take your points about making sure the right materials are used for any changes/updating, and about getting proper specialist surveys done to identify any issues that might get more serious as time goes on. And the monster contingency fund

One excellent piece of news for you is that alterations that need listed building consent are zero rated for VAT, which makes a BIG difference to the price.

In addition, if it's a fairly run of the mill Grade II property, it's pretty easy to get consent for internal alterations - I gutted thd cellar and built a new one and it was no issue at all. And our house even has (tasteful) uPVC windows, though they may have been put in before the property was listed.

You can decorate the walls and floors internally without permission.

Sounds fantastic to me.

DP and I talked about it again last night. It's a bonkers house, full of twisty little staircases and secret corners and odd fireplaces. We're getting married next year, and looking for a family home for the long haul. I really think this might be the one...

If we do manage to get it, I suspect I'll be on here grumbling about wattle and daub a lot though

Our house was built in 1865 with stone and lime mortar and still has the original lime plaster in places inside. Repointing with lime mortar is not a big deal these days as it's available for DIY use so anyone with pointing skills can use it. There are also loads of companies who specialise in working with lime. Lime plaster is also easy to use but you need to be careful when you paint it. It's porous, to allow the walls to breathe, and many modern paints aren't. So for the best results you should source paints for use with lime plaster. Again, not difficult to do but requires a bit more effort than nipping down to B&Q.

We didn't realise that one of our walls is lime plastered so have wallpapered it. In wet weather enough water gets through the wall and plaster to cause damp patches on the paper. Not enough to make the paper fall off but it was a bit of a surprise the first time it happened. If we re-decorate the room we'll use a breathable paint.

I think it depends on the Grade. My dad was an engineer and said he wouldn't touch one with a bargepole. His eyebrows hit the back of his neck when he heard that we almost bought a beautiful baby castle that was listed!

Rose of Jericho is often recommended for distemper for lime plaster. It comes in all the range of colours that you might expect.

Different councils / conservation officers will be more or less fussy about how much you can change, as well - our local team are now very conservative, apparently having been stung a few times in the past.

We went back for a second viewing, and I noticed that a lot of the plaster seems to have shrunk away from the surrounding beams. Can any of you old building people tell me if this is fixable, or whether it's a danger signal that I should run briskly away from? If we take this house we won't be able to afford large-scale upfront renovation costs.

Please help, o plaster experts of MN!

We are having lime plastering done now and have no got the listed planners involved as once they are on your case - its a nightmare. We pulled down all the lath and plaster and plasterboarded and to be honest who would know? The plastering is traditional lime and needs to be done by a professional, the corners have to be rounded and the effect is super. We get all our supplies from Ty Mawr lime in Brecon but its very expensive. The plasterer is £150pd cash. The grainy finish sounds like proper lime plus a lime wash however I have been told to avoid any wash as it needs repainting and dusty. I am doing clay paints as recommended but again $$$$.

Yes, it does bankrupt you, its a killer, the planners are ultra slow and not at all sympathic to your financial input and how much you want to improve your property.

The best thing we did was get a small architect and a friendly engineer (bit of nice cash here)to check it out and do as much without getting the officers involved. At the end of the day they cant see what you have done inside that hasnst alterted, You should be able to get a listed description of the property and see what they have noted. Obviously adding or demolition needs b-control.

The reason for the shrinkage could be simply down to the works not being done correctly in the first place and the heating has shrunk it. The trouble is you can see the standard of the previous works and what has been platered over. My first builder simply skimmed over the old lime and its chipping off so we now have to pay the the lime plasterer to redo all his work. There are loads of builders who say they can do lime plastering but they cant and with external repointing another danger area. It needs professional work. Oak beams at this age will not shrink or move. Agree that its not a cheap B&Q project. There will be a lot of maintenace involved with expensive materials so you just need to know that you have additional funds put aside for craftsmen.

Not for the faint hearted I'm afraid.

bacon - are you aware that carrying out unauthorised works to a listed building is a criminal offence that can result in up to 6 months imprisonment and a fine of up to £20,000? Don't think the local planning authority won't find out and if they do you may well have to carry out remedial works, take out the plasterboard and put back the lath and plaster. Often the Council will get an anonymous report about unauthorised works that leads to enforcement. There is no time limit for enforcement with listed buildings either.

I think given the workload of most conservation officers, it's very unlikely that they will find out about bacon's work.

To be honest, while I sympathise with the aims of listing buildings and attempting to preserve the past, many officers are so unrealistic about the work that they will allow to be done and owners find keeping the buildings in good order such a thankless task, I can't really blame anyone who tries to cut some corners.

I live in a Grade II listed house and know someone who is renovating a similar house 3 doors away.

The local council Conservation Officer has demanded she not only renovate the house using traditional materials but also remove and repair all the unauthorised repairs of the previous owner including having a 4 story Georgian staircase made form scratch to original designs. She has owned the house 2 years and it is still uninhabitable and she as run out of money.

Be very very careful and get the Conservation Officer in before you buy it.

Bacon, you have committed a criminal act. You could really struggle to sell your house, btw as I, and anybody else with any knowledge, wouldn't touch a listed building with unauthorised works with a bargepole. The owner is liable for them no matter how long ago they were carried out, and by whom, which is why Beta's neighbour is in trouble, despite not carrying out the works herself.

Don't buy a listed house if you can't handle it. Most conservation officers are actually very pragmatic and reasonable. The thing is, buildings are listed for a reason and there's no point in listing them if they're going to be altered and altered and altered.

How on earth would replacing with pasterboard v lath be a criminal act??? There is no actual alterations going on - factually we used used proper lime plastering and done everything to enhance this house that was ruined in the 1950-1960's. I have planning for the "alterations". IT IS NOT UNAUTHORISED WORK. It would be very interesting to see a person being thrown into prison for 6 months for using plasterboard and other simple works. Common sense prevails again. Unless they come and take samples and on the otherhand if I use good insulation behind the boards then its benficial to all. In this real world they wouldnt really be that concerned.

Fact, unless it is worded in detail in the listing then there is no evidence that it was not like that before, absolutely no one can prove such a thing. Unless an officer comes inside the property photographs and lists in complete detail then you can do what you feel suits your budget at the end of the day its your own property.

When it comes to a grade II star or a property that the general public will want to view then its all B@@@@@. Like everyone says, once they are gone you can do what you like. With selling this property - all planning documents are inhand and hardly think a solictor would be interested in seeing what lath & plaster receipts. Also with internal doors - thats up to you.

It would depend on the type of propety you have, mine is nothing of interest so they cannot copy any features. I have argued this before and won. I do come from an architectual background so that helps. My experience and others in the area is not of the above opinions on conservation planners. Text book v physically possible. My roofer of 60 years exp wins every time - work with the building not the plans!!!

Thanks for all your replies!

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is whether plaster shrinkage is likely to mean having to remove all the plaster and start again, or whether it's something that can just be filled a bit. If it's going to mean replastering the entire building at £150pd using traditional materials, then I don't think it's going to be realistic for us to buy the place

I can certainly see Bacon's point about the plasterboard v lath, but I should say that she's not right when she says that the COs automatically have no idea what's on the inside of your property and therefore can't make you fix it. They have varied amounts of info about the interior of the property, but they certainly may have far more information than the bare listing description. My sister just spotted some unauthorised works the other day when she went into a house under new owners.