Landlords/agents entering house without permission <sorry, long>

[silverfrog]

Have posted this in legal as well, not sure where best to put it.

Please bear with me, i will try to give as much detail as possible.

We live in a rented house. All fine until now. Landlord seems reasonable, as did agents.

I have been ill for the past 10 days (head injury, severe concussion) - this by way of background.

agents have been trying to make an appointment to service fire extinguishers. All well and good, happy to let people in, etc. For various reasons, we prefer this to be when we are at home - do we have a right to prefer this? (generally, I am available most of the time, as am sahm. obviously, this last week, I havenn't been as contactable as I usually am, with hospital appointments, etc)

So, agents left a message last week with a suggested appt time of this morning, 9am. dh said he couldn't confirm this, as didn't know my movements/whether I would be well enough for this week, and to confirm with me.

I had messages on my phone, and rang back a few times - we all kept missing each other, and chasing around in circles.

I was out all day yesterday, and agents left a message yesterday, at 5.30pm, saying that the appt had been made, and that the fire extinguisher company would be here at 9am this morning, despite no confirmation from us at all (I last rang the agent on Saturday, saying I was happy to make an appt for this to go ahead, please ring back to confirm times, etc)

I didn't see this message, and left to take dd1 to school as usual this morning. I got a call from dh at 9.30, saying that the alarms had gone off at home, and the agents were panicking about it (alarms linked to the police, on a callback contract).

so, the agents had sent the fire extinguisher people round, with keys, to let themselves in, despite no confirmed appt time from us.

I thought the agents had to give 24hours notice of intent to enter a property?

btw, the message left was not an intent to enter, either. It said "just confirming appt for tomorrow at 9am". no mention of entering if we were not there/if time unsuitable.

anyway, long story short, the fire extinguisher people buggered up the alarm. it went off, and they could not cancel/reset it. interestingly, the alarm company did not call to check what was up. so it appears we are not on the serviced contract that we have been told we are on.

where do we stand wrt the agents entering the property?

we are happy, btw, generally speaking to provide access, and have never withheld access. but no appt time was agreed, let alone confirmed, and at no point did the agent say (either in person or in a message) that they intended to enter at X time, let alone give 24 hours notice.

tbh They will be under a legal obligation to check the fire equipment and it sounds like they tried to accomodate you as best they could. I would think no more about it tbh

Why did you leave the alarm on when you knew they were coming?

You were not being very accommodating. The landlord is required by law to do this, it is for YOUR safety.

I do agree that they will have had an obligation. i understand that, and honestly have not been deliberately obstructive in this.

However, agents sent fire extinguisher people round, with no knowledge of the alarm system, wrong codes, etc. Alarm is now not functioning as it should.

Agents were about to leave the house unalarmed, (as fire extinguisher people couldn't make it work, neither could agents) their solution "oh well, we'll make sure the house is locked" - this negates our house insurance, as does having to give out the code (which we had to, to cancel the alarm).

If I had not come back home (was not due home for a few hours) they would have just left the house, obviously shut the door etc, but not alarmed.

agents are maintaining they are in the right (no mention of what is now going to happen re: alarm not working as it should), and that they would do it again.

I am sure they need to give 24 hours notice to enter a property, and so on that basis alone they are on dodgy ground, surely? let alone the other stuff re: alarm, etc

x-posts, QS.

alarm was on, as it always is when we leave the house. the agents are aware of the codes needed (alarm is paid for/serviced under contract by the landlord)

agents sent the wrong code with the service people, and also did not inform them of what is necessary to set the alarm (door positions, etc).

I have been as accomodating as possible on this. As I mentioned, i have been ill, and have been trying to speak to agents since last week too - we were all leaving messages for each other (although none of the messages left for me mentioned a time/date until yesterdays, which, for reasons unknown did not come through as a message on my mobile until dh rang this morning. fuck up on voicemail/providers part). so i did not know they were coming this morning anyway.

I knew that an appt was due, and was trying to make one.

Tradespeople are not sent out to every house with a manual. They should have been warned about the alarm, but most confuse me. And really, if the house was locked, why obsess about the alarm beign on? What is the likelihood you would have been burgled, in broad daylight, when the door was locked? You sound pissed off that they wouldn't accomodate you and are latching onto the alarm to give a reason for feeling so miffed.

Sounds to me like they made every effort to advise you that they needed access. It was just unfortunate that you didn't pick up their message from the evening before.

I would get the alarm instructions and make sure you change the code now too.

I would not like that the estate agents gave out the alarm code to contractors. Does your alarm come with "alarm fobs" at all?

I understand trades people are not sent out with a manual.

This is not an alarm system of our choosing, and the agents are in possession of the necessary inforamtion. if they are sending someone out, they should be sending the right info too.

erm, houses have been burgled, in broad daylight, in this street, several times.

as I mentioned, it negates our house insurance if we do not set the alarm.

I was aware the agents needed access, but not when (until they mentioned it yesterday, at 5.30pm - way less than the 24 hours necessary)

Yes, unfortunate that the message did not come through, nobody's fault there (although why the agent did not leave a message on home phone, I do not know. one of those htings, i suppose)

I do not agree that I have not been accomodating, btw. I have been leaving messages all week, saying happy for an appt to be arranged at mutually convenient time. no mention has been made of times until yesterday.

obviously we will be changing alarm codes now, but this is not possible until the alarm is functioning properly anyway (still no word on what will be happening there)

quite, QS. that is my pint too.

one thing for the agents to have the codes etc, but they sent out the tradespeople, without a rep from the agents.

this was not agreed by us, and we would not have ever agreed it (especially since, this last week aside, I am usually available and happy to be at home for appts whenever necessary. I was unavailable most of last week due to being ill)

You need to communicate your unhappyness with this with the agent, to ensure it doesnt happen again, and get them to sort the alarm out. The alarm code is a good way of preventing them from sending contractors in to just turn up like this in the future, so you might like to consider carefully if you are to ask for alarm fobs....

Hope you are feeling better.

In order to avoid endless phone-tag, i often take the approach of saying something like: 'I know you need access to the house for maintenance. Here are times that would suit my schedule next week (and list them out). Please let me know if the appointment can be booked at one of those times'.

Saves alot of to and fro.

For whatever reason, you do sound as if you were quite difficult to 'pin down'.

Thnaks, QS. I am feeling a little better - or at least I was until the farce today. Head is fit to burst again...

I have (several times) told the agents we are not happy.

Agents are saying they would do the same again (ie give us 16 hours notice of an appointment time, and enter anyway if not convenient)

Alarm company are saying the alarm is not malfunctioning . Agents are, naturally, hiding behind this, despite not being able to set the alarm themselves.

What are alarm fobs?

We are landlords ourselves (on 2 separate properties, managed by 2 different agencies - none of us would behave in this manner!)

urgh. what a mess. and my head hurts.

Earlybird, x-posts.

The agents are aware of my movements, generally speaking.

9am is never a good time (school run), and they have been told, several times, that appts need to be made before 8.45am, between 10am-3.30pm, or after 4.30pm.

My life (head injuries aside) is really quite regular, as I need to be contactable at all times for dd1 (severely disabled, now at school).

I do agree tha tlast week was a comedy of errors re: setting up this appt. If i had known they had an appt time in mind, I cuold have answered accordingly. my messages were along the lines of "happy to oblige, you know when are convenient times for me"

Just to post another opinion, I'm pretty sure that when you rent you're entitled to peace and quiet - there is specific wording on this that I can't remember off the top of my head (baby crying so will have to dash!) - which means that you don't have to let anyone in while renting what is your home for the period of the contract. Of course it's helpful to accommodate where possible, but even 24 hours notice isn't good enough if you don't want them to come.

yes, FortunateHamster, the phrase is "quiet enjoyment of the property"

The landlord is entitled to "reasonable" access for maintenance, but still has to provide 24 hours notice, and obtain tenants' agreement.

neither of which happened, in our case.

I would like to point out that we were happy for them to come, but at a mutually agreed time. there was no need for this to be an unauthorised entry.

Well you say that last week they left a message suggesting the 9am slot. From their perspective they could say they gave you far more than 24 hours notice.

I can understand why this is irritating but I think you need to move past it.

yes, they spoke to dh last week, to suggest today, but he could not confirm I would be well enough/it was convenient (and, of course, they knew it wasn't, as we have mentioned several times that 9am not a good time)

dh asked them to confirm with me. and phone tag commenced. one of my earliest messages would have said "oh, not 9am please, as not convenient"

we have not managed to speak with the agents since then, despite several messages left on both sides. agents did not ever say they would be sending the people regardless (even yesterdays message said "booked for 9am, hope this is convenient"), so no, they did not give more than 24 hours notice they wanted to enter the property. on that basis, you could count last month's cancelled appt to discuss a leak as notice to enter.

yes, this has happened, and we need to move on.

kind of hard ot do since the alarm is not functioning now, and since the agent has said they will happily give out alarm code (once functioning again) to any trades people they see fit.

I cannot agree that it is sensible to do so (and indeed, our insurance is void if we start handing out the alarm codes)

You need to take it further, regards the alarm codes. I know it is the last thing you want to do right now, but can you write a letter to somebody more senior and explain why you are concerned with the agents lax attitud to security in the propery? Agent is not acting in the landlords best interest as a potential burglary (and likewise malfunctioning alarm) is not in the landlords interest, and at the same time their actions are voiding your contents insurance.

Can you cc the landlord in on the letter?

I'm afraid I think you are being massively precious.
They tried to contact you, you didn't say they couldn't come at a specific time, they turned up, did their stuff and left.

Just forget about it, you don't want to be seen as a difficult tennant.