Building an extension with the builder on a daily rate?

[teta]

Has anyone done this?.Is it a good idea?.My dh is not happy with this as we will not know the finite cost and we will not be in control.This builder has just done very good work finishing off a job that a shoddy builder started on [then subsequently was sacked ].I paid him a daily rate, and he worked solidly and efficiently and was very well organised.I'm inclined to trust him ......Any comments or advice?

I really wouldn't do this personally. As you say, you just won't know the final cost and so regardless of whether or not you trust him you could find it very difficult to budget. On a well-defined project like an extension a good builder should be able to give an accurate quote which allows some wriggle room for him and allows you to make a decision at the outset about whether you can afford it.

Has the builder suggested this? I'm of the opinion that the only person who ever benefits from a daily rate is the person doing the work...

If i was paying daily rate i would have palpitations every time he has tea break. Unless you have agreed on how many days excactly is going to take.
I prefer to pay per job.

it is certainly never recommended on that cowboy trap programme.

If they are paid daily they are motivated to hang it out longer.

The experts recommend agreeing the proce of the job and paying them bit by bit as each section is completed.
you should agree all payments in advance and only hand over money when you are satisfied with the work done.

No, no, no. Bad idea. Quote for job. If he can't do that satisfactorily he doesn't know the job and you don't want him working for you.

Absolutly not. That size job is a quote for the job not on the hours.

NO. Such a big NO.

Ok there is overwhelming agreement there!.But as an example he quoted me £1900 for redoing my water pipe and ultimately decided on a daily rate.It eventually came to just over a £1000 .The problem is that we are on solid rock and the drains and plumbing are a mess.There's no telling how awkward it will be drilling out the rock to build the extension.The actual building will be straightforward.His original estimate is £24000 which seems eminently reasonable.Is your advice to go for this?.However this does not include the cost of velux and lantern rooflight and grp roof and underfloor heating and flooring etc.

Check out george Clarke's website; he tells you how to pay for your extension without losing money.

I SOOOOO wouldn't do what you're planning on doing. The builder will be in control and will just keep it ongoing doing it as slowly as he can surely?

My BIL did this for the last bit of his build when they had to come back and finish some extra stuff and it took ages for them to completely finish.

Really, you should never pay them the whole 100% until after the job is finished. Also, you tend to keep the remainder back for a set period after the job is finished(can't remember what it's called).

You should get a set price quote for the whole job and stick to it.

Retention is what you're thinking of, luciemule.

Teta. If there's uncertainty about a certain part of the build, you could price that separately - get him to state what he's assumed in his costing (3 days work of a JCB or something) and if it's very different, you need special equipment or something, you can agree a legitimate extra. Unexpected ground is the biggest uncertainty in building, you would be well advised to investigate the situation a bit so you have a better idea what you're up against. 24K sounds cheap if you are talking about any specialist groundworks.

If the builder has to carry all that risk on a fixed price he will price extra for it. Better to agree prices for each stage/section and only vary them if there's a definite change that is not the builder's fault.

That's telling me that he may not be very good at estimating how long something should take. On this occasion he over-estimated and it worked out cheaper. The next time it might be the other way round.

IMO you need to get at least three detailed quotes, all including the same things so you can compare like with like. Why hasn't he included all those other things? How do you know how much they will cost? Is it an estimate or a quote? I would never embark on building work without a quote and a schedule of payments. Honestly, building work is such a minefield (just ask Pavlov on this board), you really need to do all your research and make sure you're getting a fair deal before you agree to anything.

Definitely not - your builder may be completely trustworthy, but it's very easy with something as big as an extension that there will be some unforseen complication (speaking from bitter experience!). Eg drainage/brickwork/plumbing etc. Even more likely given the complications you already know about. Might be no-one's fault but you'll be the one forking out extra because of it.

As an example, we had our side return extended (just the ground floor). Along with many trivial unforseen things, when the walls were knocked down to extend, the walls above (2 storeys) crumbled away all the way up to the roof, so we had to rebuild 2 walls, 3 storeys high. Oh, and with reclaimed bricks in keeping with the rest of the house, @ £1 per brick...

NO! get a price for the job.

A lone voice ... we did it, and it worked brilliantly. We saved a fortune. DH was architect, project manager, fetcher-and-carrier of building materials, and tea-maker. We did a superb loft for around 7K instead of the 21K three others quoted us for the whole job. Since then, we've done an extension using the same builders for a fraction of the 'completed job' cost. We paid a daily rate plus materials.

But I will add that a) we knew the builders had a fantastic local reputation (about five people recommended them to us), and we trusted them one hundred per cent. They have become good friends. I wouldn't do it with builders whom I didn't know. And b) DH has done all the finishing-off himself, which has also saved a lot of money. I'm not sure I'd be so keen if the builders were doing the finishing-off.

Ok,thank-you all for the constructive feedback.This builder does have really good references.I can also tell that he does know what he is doing.The problem is that his father does the quoting and has not visited the site.I think what i will do is that i will get him to quote a fixed price and then give me a fixed quote for so many days groundwork.If it works out more hours i will be happy to pay the extra.As we live in an Edwardian house just replacing the water pipes down a 45 m, driveway has been an absolute nightmare.Excavating round ancient pipes and not knowing where any gas or electricity pipes are has been awful.This builder managed to stay calm and very focused.Thank-you for all the wise advice.DaisySteiner he hasn't included all those things because i have costed up separately as i don't like to be ripped off!.The actual building work is a sunroom extension with a lantern rooflight ,pulling down outbuildings and rebuilding as a utility room and reroofing a bathroom/cloakroom and reconfiguring.I think the estimate is very reasonable-perhaps too reasonable!.

If the builder is any good he will have lots of other work to go on to so won't be interested in spinning it out endlessly just to make money out of you- it sounds like your situation is one where it's impossible to quote for the job properly as there are so many unknown things to be discovered as you go along.

Just do 2 things:

1. Make sure you agree on a daily basis how long the work will take

2. Don't pay him off until you are COMPLETELY happy that everything is done. Do pay him as you go along to an extent, but keep about a third back until it is definitely done. This is not because he will rip you off- just that he may have other people desperate for his services, and once he's gone there you will have a job getting him back.

We are planning an extension 3metresx6.3metres (9.84ft by 20.7ft if it helps), for an open plan Kitchen and living area with Tele with sliding doors opening directly on to the garden and flat roof.

The existing kitchen will be stripped and turned into a study.because the current kitchen only has a doorless entrance we just need to put up a wall and door.

Just to make it clear ......All that the new study needs is stripping and a wall with a door and to cover up the window move it to another wall within the new study.

The extension needs-3 walls windows in the new kitchen and garden door+fitting the kitchen.

(hope this is enough info)

It s a very straightforwad extension with little-no complications.

Our builder (who is proffessionaly very reliable and whom we have known but never used) quoted £22000 for rhe labour and building materials and i think gas and electrics.This excludes kitchen fittings, and flooring and we will have to include lighting and probably fitting costs. So it ll be another 10K AT LEAST!.( we havn't got the written quote yet)

I just want to know if this a reasonable quote. Bcoz for now we can mange 15k without taking any debts. So i really need to know if this is reasonable before i shop around for builders.

And he says £9500 without any materials. just for the job and for us to get materials and stuff.

i m feel the contract option above(22k) is better and cheaper.but anyone who can help, i really really appreciate it.Ah and i live in essex...if it helps!