How competitive is 11+? SE London

[SE3mum]

Hello

As my username suggests I live in SE London. Currently I have a child in yr5 at a state primary school. He is bright, not top of the class but above average.

It is our intention to send DS to private school from yr7. We have been on tours and open days and have narrowed it down to two- Colfe's and St Dunstans.

However, I met a friend today whose child goes to the local prep school and she basically told me that it isn't as simple as handing over your money - that entrance is really competitive and we should have been tutoring already. Their school basically spends all of yr5 coaching them for exams.

Is this true? I know loads of children are tutored at our local primary but I thought that was mainly for the grammar schools in Bexley and Kent. I must admit a lot of parents at school are cagey about their plans for secondary and so I may have got this completely wrong.

I knew he had to sit entrance exams and thought we would get the Atom learn app over the summer to practice - is this completely naive?

We looked at Dulwich and Alleyns but thought they would be too competitive (and too far away) but I have been told we should go for more.

Our state options are pretty dire.

Is it really as bad as my friend makes out? Surely VAT will make it less competitive?

@Nyxa I know the difference, I just assumed you would still need a very high score as I assumed they would be inundated with applications. But perhaps not because you as you say you do need a very generous discount. We earn above the limit & can't afford private, a 10 or 20% discount would not change that!

It’s depressing isn’t it! I wouldn’t take my word for it @treetopsgreen - maybe ask them what their threshold is? It may have changed.

My child did it this year and it is ultra competitive. Most kids tutored from mid Y5, nobody says it at the time but when it’s all over people mention it casually.
And yes, prep schools finish the curriculum at the end of Y5 so Y6 can be spent revising. Weekly mock tests. Mine also had interview prep at school.

Very surprised by that as well re Dulwich. I know of several boys who didn’t get in despite being fairly academic. One got into Emanuel, and one Alleyns, but both a no from Dulwich.

It's a lovely school but we are kingston way now so wouldn't choose it anyway plus I am pretty happy with the state option we got. May consider private again at 6th form but it's need to be incredible to justify the cost these days personally.

And agree the tutoring is mad, I know loads who started in yr 4 for the grammars.

@PetiteBlondeDuBoulevardBrune I went to a London grammar but would not pass the maths now & I "sat" a few of the mock English ones & had to rush to finish them. They are really hard! 😆

It really does. It’s sixth form requirements are now more stringent that the Dulwich schools, and they have no hesitation in telling you that if you’re child is struggling it’s probably not the school for them.

If you get below 3 Cs in the end of year exams of Year 12 you will be asked to leave. It’s there in their policies. And they follow through, booting out kids halfway through their A levels, who’s parents’ money they’ve been happy to take.

Are you looking at Eltham College and Farringtons too? All of the Dulwich schools and EC have school coaches as does Farringtons in Chislehurst from SE3. Hither Green station opens up other options like Sevenoaks, Babington and the Grammars. There are lots of year 7’s for different schools on the platforms in the mornings.

When dc applied, all of the selective grammar school kids did well at the independent tests but a lot of those who weren’t deemed selective for grammar, but were still quite clever, were offered independent school places even at Dulwich and Alleyns. I would think that the VAT rise will definitely have an impact on application numbers in favour of those who can pay full whack.

Colfes and St Dunstans have upped their game recently so are getting more competitive. Some or most of the dc sitting the tests will also be well along with preparation for grammar tests which are sat earlier in year 6 for the first stages. Almost everyone at dc prep school was tutored for year 5 on top of the schools own prep in early year 6 (although some people will not mention it or downplay it).

I can’t remember the format of the tests now (and it’s probably changed since my dc sat it) but look at the GL format plus longer English and maths papers. Timing is critical. Book onto a couple of mock tests asap to gauge where your dc sits within the cohort.

By the way, it’s fairly common to apply for 4 independent schools and quite a few dc sit for 5 plus the grammar tests so their dc are very used to the pressure of the exam hall and formats.

The variations in test scores may also depend on the child’s thoughts on moving schools. I know two who either deliberately fluffed an exam or passed the exam and then told the interviewer they were happy where they were and didn’t want to join the higher ranking school.

Can you elaborate? I don't understand what this means.

My DH took DS to an open event at St Dunstan's yesterday and they really enjoyed it - DS is very keen to go there.

We looked at Eltham College but it came across as quite pushy - not sure DS will be cut out for that. Although I am concerned about the comments saying DC are asked to leave St Dunstan's if they aren't going to do well in exams - I had no idea this was a thing. It's pretty shocking.

I must admit I am finding this whole thing overwhelming - it feels like there is a whole different set of rules and language that we need to learn.

We wouldn't qualify financially for any bursaries but should we apply for scholarships? How do you know if you are in that league?

@SE3mum for academic scholarships no need to do anything it will be picked up in the entrance exams (then sometimes an extra interview). Hard to gauge but maybe top 5-10% will be offered an academic scholarship? Drama, sport and music - all the requirements are detailed on each school’s website. Both my DC were offered a couple of different scholarships from various schools - they are high flyers but it’s not an insanely high standard. Worth working towards and throwing some money at it if it’s realistic as the scholarships have saved us literally tens of thousands of pounds. Having said that, with the introduction of VAT, scholarships may become rarer and/or less generous so as to preserve funds for bursaries. I don’t know how that will pan out.

just for balance, all these schools saying they had 560 take the exam for 90 places on offer... It's because most kids will sit 4 or more exams. It's not because 560 families would choose Colfes/St Dunstans over all other options.

as the birth rate goes down and the VAT impact bites I imagine all of these schools will become easier and that the policies of kicking kids out if they don't do well enough at GCSE - Y12 will slowly be withdrawn

Previously St Dunstan’s was a destination for children who either couldn’t get into or didn’t want to get into the highly competitive and academic Dulwich schools. Which is fine and good, there’s a very valid place for schools like this. Many parents and children will have chosen it because of that.

Under its fairly new head it wants to change that and be seen as a direct competitor to them and is, in my opinion, being fairly brutal about achieving that.

I would also say that despite being co-ed for 30 years it feels more like a boys’ school with some girls in it.

Obviously for many it’s a great choice.

I don’t think this is a good thing at all.
The Dulwich schools have gone the other way over the past decade - guaranteed places in the senior school for all their junior school pupils. I have never heard of anyone being asked to leave at the end of y12.

Whilst I don’t thinks this matters, I would say the Dulwich schools are second tier (knocking on first depending on league tables and their parameters) and St. Dunstan’s third. I don’t this makes a difference but it seems to be important to some people.
All will get excellent or good results but by what means? And will those means suit your child?

The next generation of parents want co-ed schools. Yhays why Dunstans had become ‘desirable’ and can suddenly afford to be more choosey. That’s why Alleyns is hardest to get into (although traditionally it had less impressive destinations for its students than the other Dulwich schools - probably because many come from more privileged white backgrounds so don’t worry as much about boring academia once they’ve left the school).
Dulwich definitely still weeds boys out - but they do it more subtly than Dunstans.

The next generation of parents want co-ed schools

Is there data for this?
Some parents will want co-ed, others single sex and some won’t mind.
Some single sex independents are becoming co-ed perhaps not to limit their potential “client base”.

Interesting re co-ed thing - girls' schools seem to be holding out (and another reason why having a boy is more difficult in this area - far fewer places).

A friend of mine has just heard that her private school is closing at the end of term (Bishop Challoner in Shortlands) which makes me worry about smaller schools such as Babington House. How awful for families to have to scrabble around for a school place in September.
I assume Colfe's and St Dunstans are financially secure? I am not sure how to go about finding out.

@SE3mum Babington has a niche in that its fees are c. 20% less than other privates locally so for now they are meeting a strong demand for a private education with fewer frills and correspondingly lower cost.

Yes, I was pleasantly surprised by Babington's fees - they don't seem to have too many hidden extras either. Thank you to the posters who suggested having a look as I don't think I would have done otherwise.

We have visited the school on a small private tour earlier this week. DS is going for their taster day in October.

We went by train which wasn't actually that bad but DS just feels so little to be doing all that alone (I know, he will be 11 when he actually starts senior school).

I liked the school but it just feels a bit too small.

Not sure it would suit DS, he prefers St Dunstans but I think he is swayed by the sports facilities. I think it suits a child that wants to learn in a quiet, nurturing environment, is happy to stick to the main academic subjects and not too fussed by extra curriculars and sport. Their art department was lovely.

I wouldn't be upset if he went there - in many ways it could be an academically good place for him - but it would mean we would have to make a lot more effort at weekends to keep his sports / other hobbies up.
I also worry about friendships - in a cohort of 35 it will be difficult if you don't find your people, plus I doubt many will live locally to us.