Questionable JAGS and Alleyn's (and possibliy Dulwich College) (4+ / reception) admission practice (if you children did not attend DUCKS)

[putt4dough]

Just got rejected by both schools today, and their rejection emails were sent almost at the same time (hardly concerted).

Maybe it was already well known, but we still grossly didn't get the odds right to begin with.

We do know people who have children currently attending JAGS and DC's junior schools, only now has it become evident that an undisclosed must-have criterion might be that their children all went to DUCKS.

Parents were led to believe 4+ entry assessment would not be academic or affiliation based. but our experience, although very limited, showed us otherwise.

Out of very limited 4+ spaces which I suspect reserved for applicants coming from DUCKS, applications from outside DC affiliated schools could be essentially fighting for single digit amount of 4+ spaces available at JAGS, Alleyn's and Dulwich College.

Obviously it is only our speculation, but our disappointment is still fresh and overwhelming. it would feel less of a "scheme" if more transparency were offered pre and post the admission process. I think parents deserve to know why our children were rejected. It would be a lot more considerate if these school would offer some transparency, or even consider scraping these assessments for outsiders if they already knew the year would be "oversubscribed".

Hope this helps those who will be applying to those schools.

Oh I'm sorry to hear that. I'm in the same boat. Didn't manage to register DUCKS in time but keen for DD to attend the 4+ assessment. May I ask how do you find the assessment and does your kid currently attend a nursery or preschool?

Did you get an email from Alleyn’s?
we didn’t hear anything and I have 2 other parents in the same boat.

we got into Ducks/DC, but we didn’t do the nursery there. They had c20 places for outside of nursery kids, not a lot.

They probably have many applying to the schools for a few spots. During the assessment process, they will be looking at teachability. I know the dc are so young, but from that age you can get an idea of personalities and if they are good at listening or following instructions. For example, when my dd was 3 and 4 I had many opportunities to volunteer at her school for her class. I worked with dc who were in the age range of 3-5. I also gave them a little presentation. There were two dc that kept interrupting - asking things or having comments that were not relevant at all to what I was presenting (it was a culture presentation; parents came once a week to discuss a different country). Anyway, the rest of the kids managed to sit quietly mainly or ask good questions or have relevant comments....even at this young age! So the two dc who could not listen properly and kept being a minor disruption (teacher told them off a couple times) would probably not get a spot. Or for example another dc I know is EXTREMELY shy. It is hard to get a word out of her and she would BARELY participate in things or interact with others at the start....I assume this would make it less likely to get a spot compared to a child that is engaged or interested. I dont think the schools are looking for little geniuses at this point. But they are looking for dc that are interested, engaged and can listen/follow instructions. They might have many more children that are good candidates then spots....then they probably look at the right mix for the class (personalities, age (summer vrs winter babies) etc).

Assessing 4 year olds for teachability is a sad state of affairs. So the kids who are interested and ask questions are rejected, while those who ‘sit quietly’ pass.

No, this is not true. The kids that are interested and ask questions will pass as well. It is the ones that disrupt and ask questions and say things that have nothing to do with what you are teaching that will not pass. For example, I was doing a presentation on a country. Let's say it was Spain. We spoke about the traditions, the foods etc. One child kept interrupting. He asked things that had nothing to do with what we were discussing such as what day is it today or can I play tag at recess. Over the weekend it is my father's bday. Things like that....while none of the other dc were distracted. This child could not focus on what we were actually discussing. I could see by the teacher's reaction that this child probably does this a lot. I could be wrong, as it is just my speculation. But I imagine schools do not want dc who are not able to focus on a short 5 minute teaching and ask relevant questions.

Did go with our DD to the assessments by JAGS and Alleyn's, but have absolutely no idea what went on after the teachers took her away along with other children. We are actually based in West Dulwich, and our DD has been with other 2 nurseries in the area.

we did get the rejection emails from both schools. nothing particular mentioned they were just from some template.

thanks @SamPoodle123 , wish we had your insights before all of it. Guess it is what it is now.

@putt4dough I believe everything happens for a reason and perhaps a different school will suit your dc best and also they could still join further down the line. Do you have a good state school near by? Perhaps you could save a few years and try for 7+? You never know what it could have been, your dc might have done fine on the assessments and they did not have enough spots so gave it to another dc, that perhaps had the correct birth month (to have the right balance in the class) or some other thing. It sucks getting a no. We are in the middle of the 11+ so know what you are going through (did not make it to interview for Kings)...but in the end think it is a blessing in disguise for us (tricky to get to).

Thanks @SamPoodle123, our DD is currently at Rosemead's Pre-Prep/Nursery right next to our house, and the plus side is it offers security all the way to 11. The teachers there all seem very aspiring and sweet, and we are not unhappy with it at all.

Following its merger with St Dunstan's College, I suppose she would get fed to St Dunstan’s if we don't try to apply to other schools and/or our finances remains healthy.

When there are 300+ applicants for less than 35 places, it's always going to be a bit arbitrary who shines on the day, and it's not a reflection on your child, just the ridiculous system we're in.

As someone with children at both of those schools, I've seen the intake for multiple years.

The proportion from DUCKS is very, very variable, nothing that would indicate that a set proportion of places was reserved for them. You could say the same for Herne Hill, that each year they always get a few children in, but you don't seem to think they have an secret arrangement?

I think what both of those settings has in common is that they are very good at supporting children in the EYFS at meeting the targets (in a broad way, not just phonics and counting) and this supports children during the 4+ process. So when they go into a classroom to be assessed they'll see an environment very similar to their everyday one.

Also as schools that will have an eye on children doing 7+ assessments (which is an important absolute measurement they want to achieve) they're already building skills etc that they want their 4+ children to have, so it isn't surprising if their hit rate is higher than the Montessoris in the area.

It is shitty when it is your child though

Did you receive a clear rejection? We are waitlisted for both Jags and Alleyn’s but not sure the waitlist is genuine or if it’s a template they sent to everyone.

@DreamyRoseBird the waiting list is real, and a separate group of children to those who get an outright no.
Quite a few children hold offers for more than one school, so there's a fair bit of movement.

Definitely some come frome the waitlist each year.

Did you get any movement from either waiting list? Are you accepting?

We’ve also been through the process with these schools and heard from parents and teachers that much as others have already said in this thread, children who have been to nurseries attached to private schools have a much higher chance of getting in. It feels unfair because many parents don’t learn this until after their kids have done the 4+ assessments but it does seem that Herne Hill, DUCKS and Dulwich Prep who take from age 2 have quite good results when it comes to getting kids into the private schools in this area. This being versus standalone nurseries, presumably because there is a difference in approach. Pretty crazy to think about all of this for kids who are at such a young age. But wanted to share in case it helps any other parents get ahead of 4+ by considering the nurseries that are attached to schools to potentially help their chances.

It's sad to read these messages about how people didn't feel supported or knew what the process involved. As a 4+ assessor (not from Ducks/DC) I know we would be as open as we could about how we explained the process to families and we did as much as we could to enable all children to feel comfortable and 'shine'. We even had one girl come three times as she wouldn't settle the first 2 times (as she did really well the third time!).
I always felt that if parents have paid the registration fee and taken the time to show an interest in our school, the least we could do was to make sure we got as much out of their child as we could.
I'm happy to answer any questions from people going for 4+ assessments at schools this coming autumn. 😀

I think too much is being made of “being unsupported” or some unwritten agreement between schools. The reality is that children that have been in a preschool setting are much more likely to feel settled during an assessment process that replicates an early years setting. The schools do describe broadly what they will be doing with the children - circle time, play based activities but they are not going to give finer details.

There is little advantage for schools such as DUCKS, Herne Hill etc sending their pupils to JAGS and Alleyn’s for reception, as the former will be looking pupils early rather than having an income until y3.

AFAIK, JAGS and Alleyn’s (and DC) have always sent out their acceptance, wait-list and rejection letters on the same day for the various entry points - the dates are published in advance, I believe. Some children will have offers from two of the schools so there is no collusion between them when deciding who to offer to - it would be very difficult to considering the numbers that apply.

Super academic schools won’t be giving a child a third chance though right?

@lilproblem what are you trying to say about my school??? 😂
I think it depends on the numbers they need to get through. We would typically see up to 200 children per year split over 2weeks and would have the wiggle room for a bit of flexibility if someone said their child was unwell on the day or if we had to return a child that would settle or speak.
Each school has their own way of working and set of expectations. It's definitely a question you can ask at Open Days. If they said said, "no, your 3yr old child gets one chance to see us. If they cry and wont settle, we will have to return them to you", is that a nurturing, caring environment you want to send your child to? That's just my opinion😎