Tax on school fees

[CheekyUser]

of course it won’t affect the really wealthy but we have three kids at private school and we are now going to withdraw them all. We will see them through the remainder of this school year and from September we have secured places at local state schools. When the alternative is free why would we carry on drawing down on our mortgage and sacrificing holidays and be taxed for doing so. Let the state pay.

You cited sen kids as a reason private schools should be exempt from vat. Kids with ehcps are outside vat. Which leaves your sen argument as, I'm afraid, a call for nurses, binmen and retail workers to pay Josh's vat out of our taxes. I don't think that's right or just.

No, she pointed out how stupid this policy is: that it doesn't even make sense from a redistributive point of view.

If you don't understand her point, that's your failing, not hers.

You shouldn't be so in awe of the Institute of Fiscal Studies and the Office of Budget Responsibility by the way.

They're just people.

I do enough analysis in my own area to clearly see that they haven't done much analysis into the impact. I certainly wouldn't get away with such a light touch on something with that potential impact.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/23/the-worst-its-ever-been-teachers-decry-send-crisis-in-englands-schools

“Dozens of teachers also raised concerns about the EHCP system being unable to target support at those with the biggest needs.
“SEN resources are directed towards the parents who push for it,” said a primary school teacher from Sussex who wanted to stay anonymous, describing overly ambitious parents trying to get EHCPs to secure extra academic attention for their children in crowded classrooms, even if they did not struggle.* *Other parents, he said, were pathologising normal behaviours such as occasional forgetfulness, or were trying to get medical diagnoses for minor issues such as a child’s inability to tell the time.

“Meanwhile, we have children who can’t read but will never get an EHCP as their parents won’t ask for it,” the teacher added.
Another teacher working in the suburbs of the capital said the “inclusion illusion” meant that councils were at the mercy of tribunals demanding that needs must be met, regardless of financial deficits.
Children in mainstream classes are watching adults in crisis.“

Another day, another article on SEND. Cannot say I agree with the above points much, but if some of it is true, it certainly will follow that thousands upon thousands of DC with SEND previously in private schools, at the cost of the parents along, without EHCPs but possibly entitled to one, will definitely be claiming them. How exactly that will help the system, I do not know?

Covid has damaged the whole generation and their ingenious solution is to mess them all up just one bit more!

My goodness. What a spiteful comment.

Not just a spiteful comment, also very cowardly. A lot of them are constantly name changing too - not so big after all!

However, what the spiteful comment does illustrate is the classic race to the bottom - the worst of the Labour ideology that many of us had hoped had been wiped out for good.

Yes I’ve noticed the name changing too. I simply can’t think why.

If little Josh moves from private school to the state sector, will those nurses, binmen and retail workers pay more tax (to cover his state education) or less tax.

So... are they really subsidising Josh's VAT when he's at private school?

Or are Josh's parents actually subsidising their taxes when he's at private school?

How good is your maths?

Of course 'stop private school parents subsidising everyone else's taxes' doesn't make such a good slogan for Labour's stupid policy as the deliberately fallacious 'stop tax breaks for private school'.

Might make tax payers actually stop and think. Can't have that. Populist appeals to the emotions only, please!

We moved house to be in catchment for one of the best state schools in the country. Paid a large premium for our house for this as well as an eye watering amount in stamp duty for the privilege. We just sucked it up and moved on. VAT has just become part of the private school route privilege so the only option is to do the same.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that not all private school children with EHCPs are exempt from paying the VAT. It’s only those students for whom their school is named in their EHCP, which means their LA is paying for their place already. Funnily enough the LAs didn’t want to/can’t afford to pay 20% extra for each of those students.

@BarkLife your school sounds lovely, but definitely isn't typical of the Midlands County I live in.

I work in post-16 education. All the students I have met (and many secondary teachers) tell me there are major issues in our schools with student violence, sexual harassment, and very poor mental health. My own child had the same experiences, which massively impacted their learning.

All those schools claim to have robust anti-bullying etc policies, but they are never acted on. It's not easy to move schools, we have a shortage of places in several towns.

So reading this and looking at @Tealpins comments, little Josh will now get resources from the overall SEN pot reducing that pot (and reducing provisions for the other children with SEN).

Because little Josh’s parents are still trying to do the best for their child but now instead of paying for private, they will go state and argue for all available support for Josh - not for the whole system as they can afford to pay additional outside of school. But with their sharp elbows, they will get a huge share of the EHCP pie in the school.

The school will probably put Josh next to a studious girl as well to calm him down. Given the big class sizes that may be the only option. Great for Josh, less great for the girl used as human shield, but….

Private school fees have been increasing at 5% a year for about the last 20 years. Many "ordinary" families were priced out long ago. I did use to live in an area where the choice for a great education was: be Catholic, buy an expensive house in the right catchment, or buy a house in a cheap area and pay school fees.

But as more parents who would have paid send their children to state schools, those schools tend to improve as they can raise more money fundraising and the parents tend to be more involve/pushy.

Oh and Private schools I know have massive drugs problems and a lot of eating disorders.

I don't want to pay for Josh to go to an independent school when Amara, Alfie and Muhammad don't. Sorry if you don't like the equitable treatment of all kids with SEN but if you think that what you've described is fine for the poorer families but not on for Josh, then I can't help you.

And spare me the lectures on what it's like for kids with SEN in the state sector. I know. It is my lived experience. But I see shocking practice in the indie special sector and see straight forward disability discrimination in the mainstream indie sector, so you can put away the tiny violins.

You don't pay for Josh to go to an independent school. Not a penny. You never have.

Josh's parents pay for his education entirely, which means you pay less tax than if he was at state school.

hth.

What you really mean is that you don’t want Josh's parents to pay for Josh to go to an independent school.

You want them to give all their money to Amara, Alfie and Muhammad instead.

But that's not your choice.
It's their money, not yours.
You are free to give them your money, which you have earned.

But as more parents who would have paid send their children to state schools, those schools tend to improve as they can raise more money fundraising and the parents tend to be more involve/pushy.

MollyButton I wondered if this old chestnut would come up and sure enough it has.
Saying that private schools parents are ‘more pushy and involved’ is fairly insulting to state school parents. Do state school parents just sit on their arses all day?
Also, there are already plenty of well off people who use state schools - why aren’t they being pushy and doing more fund raising?

I must have started the Christmas Eve wine too early if that is what you took away from this scenario.

In this suggested scenario Josh will be fine as his parents will argue for as much as possible of the SEN budget whilst also topping up any support outside of school. This means less support for Amara, Alfie and Muhammad, especially if there is limited funding and their parents are less vocal in arguing for the support.

The tax payer will now fund all of Josh’s education instead of none.

And the person I feel sorry for is the little girl sitting next to Josh to help calm him down. Maybe her parents can’t afford to tutor her outside school?

Also there are simultaneously few enough private school parents moving across that they won't impact stretched resources... but enough of them to change the school.

Well actually both my children's schools did have a lot of parents who for one reason and another (moving late, not quite getting the grade needed, or the relentless 5% fee increase) were natural private school pupils but ended up in state.
And they did raise more funds than other schools, and have more options.
The Primary school was seen as a "feeder" by several private senior schools, so often got "deals" to use their facilities.

And some of the less well off parents were also highly motivated (such as accepting a council house transfer sight unseen due to being in catchment).
But money and business skills and contacts can help.

Yep as per PP’s observation: classic race to the bottom.

Let’s make sure all the SEN kids are made to suffer equally!!!

In fact, let’s make sure all SEN kids suffer even more than they are now - yes that means you too Amara, Alfie and Muhammad - when the resources have to be stretched even more thinly to cover those transferring from independent schools!!!!

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Absolutely not! Some private schools have hiked up fees to ridiculous levels. At a time when most people in society have been struggling with the cost of living. I think their behaviour has been terrible but I guess that this competitive sphere that they live in. I do however think that the Labour policy of taxing education (about the only country in the world where this is done) is utterly wrong.

No. We just simply can’t afford it anymore.