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can anyone explain?

58 replies

MathsMadMummy · 30/06/2010 12:19

hello, just wondering how the whole reading levels thing works when kids learn to read at school. I've seen a lot of threads about kids not being given the right level books, not being allowed to go up a level, the books being so boring... seems like a bit of a minefield!

no personal experience - DD only just 3 so it'd be good to know. when I started school (1981) I was reading so I just read what I wanted (teacher gave me her own DD's books!) - no idea what others were doing. do kids who are already reading get that freedom nowadays? I've heard of parents getting told off for teaching their kids to read! not that my DD is anywhere near reading, and she's a summer baby so I don't expect she would be by then.

anyway would love somebody to explain, so I will vaguely know what to expect if she goes to reception.

dropping DD at nursery now, so will eagerly check for replies later. TIA

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mrz · 03/07/2010 15:35

I have always begun to teach children to read on their very first day in reception with good phonics instruction. Phonics instruction is fast paced with a new sound taught every day so by November children know all the sounds in English and at least one way to write those sounds. By the second week in school children are blending sounds for reading and segmenting words for spelling. We have spent thousands of pounds replacing ORT and Ginn with high quality/ high interest phonic based books for new readers and lots of boy friendly books for older children to encourage them to use the skills they have been taught. All children from reception to Y6 read daily in class and at the moment outdoor... we rarely have children who leave us unable to read independently so we must be doing something right.

"2007 results in reading show that 84% of 11-year-olds achieved the expected level "
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7073275.stm
the 2007 National levels are similar to Feenie's latest results, my school has slightly higher results (in the 90s)

Feenie · 03/07/2010 16:35

I was quoting national 2009 results, mrz - our own results are further down that post, 93% level 4 or above, with 77% level 5s. I know your school is in a similar sort of area to ours, so we must be doing something right, mustn't we!

Thanks very much, judytzuke! I appreciate the vote of confidence.

BeenBeta · 03/07/2010 16:41

mrz - you sound like you are in a great school and doing a great job.

Its not like that everywhere though as my sister knows. Standards in many state schools are far far lower than where you and Feenie teach.

Without undermining the fantastic job teachers like you do and often in the pretty horrendous face of dealing with the aftermath of social deprivation my view is that SAT Level 5 is a bare minimum we should aim for as a nation to allow children to compete in the modern world. Our top 25% of children need to be aiming at a far far higher level. In that sense standard setting has failed. The standards were set too low.

You and me and Feenie* have argued about this in the past. My belief is that the old 11+ standard is where we should be aiming as a minimum for our top 25% of children and SAT Level 5 as a minimum for the other 75% (ex SEN and dyslexic).

More research is required - but its pretty clear that versus international standards the UK is falling behind. This issue is too important to ignore or left hostage to political correctness.

maizieD · 03/07/2010 16:55

Feenie,

What is it that you said was statutory in state schools?
It looks as though you are referring to phonics teaching. Which isn't statutory.

Feenie · 03/07/2010 16:56

"Its not like that everywhere though as my sister knows. Standards in many state schools are far far lower than where you and Feenie teach"

But I talked you through the national statistics, beenbeta.

"Without undermining the fantastic job teachers like you do and often in the pretty horrendous face of dealing with the aftermath of social deprivation my view is that SAT Level 5 is a bare minimum we should aim for as a nation to allow children to compete in the modern world. Our top 25% of children need to be aiming at a far far higher level. In that sense standard setting has failed. The standards were set too low."

Really? I'm not sure that you know what level 4 reading demands, in that case. To expect level 5 as a bare minimum is frankly ludicrous.

"More research is required - but its pretty clear that versus international standards the UK is falling behind.

More sweeping generalisations, beenbeta - where is your evidence?

"More research is required - but its pretty clear that versus international standards the UK is falling behind."

BeenBeta · 03/07/2010 17:29

feenie/mrz - lets not argue. You are good and commited teachers. I just come at it from a different point of view as matter of international competitiveness.

I really feel worried for children who cannot get good jobs and that it will get no better in future. That is all that matters in the final analysis.

There is precious little well paid manual or craft based work now. Intangible services based around advanced use of the English language is the one clear advantage we have as a country. We must not allow that to be eroded. The UK has to be the best in the world at the use of the English language, the language of the world and our native tongue.

All our children need high level competencies and SAT Level 5 as a bare minimum in that competitive world o the future otherwise our children will be no better than children who learned it as a second language of which there will literally be billions in the near future.

Feenie · 03/07/2010 17:41

Beenbeta, I am quite happy not to argue if you would stop with the 'reading is crap in this country' type crap with not a scrap of evidence to back up your thoughts, save that your sister said it, so it must be true.

mrz · 03/07/2010 18:09

Reading at NC level 5 at age 10 or 11 is certain a good foundation to build upon after all it is only half way through a child's school career, a fact which you seem to be ignoring totally.

mrz · 03/07/2010 18:25

PISA* showed that Britain was one of the best performers internationally
on tests of practical literacy at age 15, with the UK ranked in the top 8 internationally

Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) ran by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD}

Denmark and Sweden have lower average scores on PISA* than the UK?

minimathsmouse · 03/07/2010 22:08

Feenie is right in saying state schools provide a new book everyday, this is my exp, however the failure seems to be in expectations and the fact the many teachers have a poor grasp of phonics.

I'm sure Feenie has stated the correct stats, however you have to ask what these levels actually mean. An example of this is level 4 in maths by end of yr 6 is viewed as good. When in fact level 4 basically means your child has rote learnt a few basic number facts and can calculate a half!! PLEASE! The levels of attainment are set so low. GCSE's have been dumbed down,so that state ed can justify itself.

My eldest son spent the first two years in private Pre-prep and read well and read early. My youngest has been in state for one year and so far I can't see that the school has made any contribution. He tells me he has been playing lego all day and his teacher beams at me and says sweetly how much he loves the sand pit!

Feenie, I know just as well as you do, that for middle class famillies state ed is free baby sitting and for the disadvantaged a break from the dysfunctionality of their home life. What it doesn't offer is a first class education.

BeenBeta · 03/07/2010 22:28

minimathsmouse - well I would never dare to say it the way you put it but yes that is what my sister says about state school she taught in. That you said also tallies in contrast my experience of the good Pre-Prep our DSs went to.

Feenie · 03/07/2010 22:51

"Feenie, I know just as well as you do, that for middle class famillies state ed is free baby sitting and for the disadvantaged a break from the dysfunctionality of their home life. What it doesn't offer is a first class education."

You have got to be kidding. There's no way my state school and thousands of others don't provide a first class education. Why would I be a state school teacher if I didn't fervently believe, in my heart of hearts, that my children achieve the very best that they possibly can?

RollaCoasta · 03/07/2010 23:02

....When in fact level 4 basically means your child has rote learnt a few basic number facts and can calculate a half!!...

Ridiculous statement, We do this in Y2. Have you ever seen a SATs paper?

ICantFindAGoodNickname · 03/07/2010 23:26

Feenie you are no doubt a very, very good teacher and I am always impressed by your passion and commitment to education but unfortunately your desciption of state schooling is not something I've experienced in our apparently Outstanding School. My dc's progress has been very much a result of the effort we have both put in at home - which is sad because I always wanted to be one of those "home is for play" mums.

I want my dc to go to your school ...or Mrz's school...

Middle class, high Sats scoring schools are not all they're cracked up to be, behind the scenes parents are supporting their kids in all sorts of ways to keep up with their peers...the teachers don't have to bother too much when tutoring is pretty much the norm.

Feenie · 03/07/2010 23:47

I'm sorry about your experiences - they don't match mine as a teacher.

My ds is about to begin Reception in September (not at my school, although I wish he could benefit from our outstanding Reception teacher, but that's another debate - wouldn't keep my nose out, it wouldn't be fair ) - I am confident that he will share the same experience at our chosen state school.

minimathsmouse · 04/07/2010 00:51

RollaCoaster, I have seen plenty of sats papers thank you.

I teach maths, but where I differ from you and many others working in state schools is this: I am fully aware and disaprove of the way in which education has been politisised and dumbed down in favour of ensuring level playing fields. Its a falacy to beleive that equality of opportunity equals equality of outcome. A case in point is the G&T register with the hidden agenda it stands for. Another is the almost complete death of the Grammar schools.

Its impossible to ignore these issues and even more so to agree with it,unless you feel social worker has been added to your job description.

Feenie · 04/07/2010 00:58

disapprove

politicised

fallacy

Thank the lord I, a lowly state teacher, can at least spell.

Fairly essential in my line of work

minimathsmouse · 04/07/2010 01:38

Your spelling is better than mine just as I'm sure you put in 100% with your class. The point I am making is that teachers are not being allowed to teach. The target setting of the last government(both overt and covert) has meant that teaching time is reduced, teachers are not allowed to use their own initiative and levels have been set low for a reason.

In my DS2's school they don't have a system for teaching reading, his teacher has read with him ten times. Each statement in his reading record expresses a different approach is being used. This is very damaging.

The reason some children flourish in state whether its reading or any other area is due to the increasing use of tutors and the extra effort made by parents. This results in a widening of the gap between middle class and disadvantaged children.

BeenBeta · 04/07/2010 09:01

I was a it too tired to add to the tread properly last night but our experience adds surprising dimension to the whole state versus private debate and correlates with what *minimathsmouse says.

Our DSs started out in a very intensive high league table Pre-Prep which did not follow national curriculum at all. The teachers were allowed to go beyond the NC and were expected to so. There were children who had remedial help but others who went far beyond the required standard. SAT level 3 (at Yr 2) and SAT level 5 (at Yr 6) was the minimum standard expected.

The purpose of the school was to reach 11+ sandard by Yr 6 and SAT was just a test on the way and not at all important in determining the curriculum.

We then moved house to a new city and our DSs started a new Prep that explicitly targeted and followed the national curriculum both in content and in standards. What a difference. The pace of the learning is far lower, the expected standard is far lower. We are having to do home coaching in maths just to keep DSs at a reasonable level compared to their peers at other Preps and to be able to handle 11+ entry exams at senior schools. I do not expect to have to do this.

In effect our current Prep is operating like a very good state Primary school. Good standard of welfare, good behaviour, good facilities, good teachers, small classes BUT when we go and talk to the Head and the teachers they just simply do not have any concept of any standard beyond NC. They are constrained by it. The more able children are drifting along far below their potential. We are not the only parents saying it. For the weaker children it is fine but not for the more able children. As minimathsmouse says:

"teachers are not being allowed to teach. The target setting of the last government(both overt and covert) has meant that teaching time is reduced, teachers are not allowed to use their own initiative and levels have been set low for a reason.
teachers are not being allowed to teach. The target setting of the last government(both overt and covert) has meant that teaching time is reduced, teachers are not allowed to use their own initiative and levels have been set low for a reason."

This is happening in a Prep school that has decided to use the NC as its standard. It is too low. It is nothing to do with social deprivation or any other factor.Many parents at the school are very welloff. It is just the NC that is crushingly unchallenging.

It leads to what we call 'satisficing'. Once a child reaches SAT Level 5 the teacher focuses on the weaker pupils. The standard DS1 is in maths is not up to 11+, whch is where he needs to be and he is very able. We know that form his previous school. We are having to add our own teaching JUST to remedy the NC deficiency.

Dont get me wrong. The school is very good but only up to the NC standard - which is just too low for more able children and for what the economy needs. DS2 is fundamentally able at maths but cannot add up figures in columns yet and he is at the end of Yr 3. I taught him how to do that a few days ago. DS1 will not learn any kind if advanced algebra at all. We are having to do that ourselves. Same issues in English.

Middle class parents are hiring tutors to get their DCs up to to 11+ everywhere around the country because NC just does not go far enough. It is dumbed down and for children with parents who are less academic, lower income and disadvantaged in some way they simply will not get their children up the required standard. This is one reason why the social divide is opening up again.

Sorry but if a teacher teaches all their time in an NC environement they just do not have the experience to know what is possible and what is required beyond that NC level. It does not make them bad teachers but they should be concered that parents feel it necessary to hire a tutor to make up for the material and standards thay do not teach in school.

I say again NC level 5 is a bare minimum standard - not a target teachers should be satisficing on.

Lizcat · 04/07/2010 09:42

mathsmadmummy you will not be alone in not knowing what to expect. However, many schools invite parents of reception starters to a meeting where they explain how they will be teaching reading and what involvement they expect from the parents at the beginning of the year.
Regarding reading levels all schools use different methods of banding books some use the national levels, some use one reading scheme, some have their own bands, some use a mix of reading schemes and some schools like DDs deliberatly make the scheme very complex so that children can not be compared (IMHO a very good thing).

mrz · 04/07/2010 10:58

minimathsmouse as a lowly state school teacher I spent 4 years studying phonics at degree level and a further year at masters level so I consider myself as having a good grasp of phonics quite possibly better than many independent school reception teachers.

I think with your maths example you are confusing the expectations for a level 4 with those of a level 2 ...

and while many of the children I teach come from disadvantaged backgrounds I find it very offensive that you conclude this equates to dysfunctional! I've met many people from higher up the social scale who are much more dysfunctional and in spite of their "first class" education appear as ignorant as your statement.

Feenie · 04/07/2010 11:11

"The target setting of the last government(both overt and covert) has meant that teaching time is reduced, teachers are not allowed to use their own initiative and levels have been set low for a reason."

I don't recognise any of this. In the last 20 years, my teaching time hasn't been reduced. I am always allowed to use my own initiative. Levels are not 'set', and don't put ceilings on children's learning - I can still do what I and my colleagues have always done: enable the children to to blossom,flourish and make as much progress as they possibly can.

I would agree with mrz' comment regarding phonic teaching - I did consultancy work in Literacy for our local and very well-respected private school. They didn't have the first clue about phonics, and their teaching of reading was in utter chaos. The only advantages as far as I could see were a very high teacher to child ratio (invaluable) and 100% interested parents who would practice reading with their child at home.

And still with the ludicrous sweping statements on this thread, which have absolutely no basis in fact.

"The reason some children flourish in state whether its reading or any other area is due to the increasing use of tutors and the extra effort made by parents"

What a load of garbage. Come and see which parents can afford tutors in my area, and coumt which ones are interested in helping with their child's education.

"Once a child reaches SAT Level 5 the teacher focuses on the weaker pupils."

Feenie · 04/07/2010 11:12

practise

BeenBeta · 04/07/2010 11:14

Personally, I am celebrating this morning that Michalel Gove plans to make [[http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5ityZTlpivfHiT_1b81HMJa9wcSgw A Levels more rigorous].

We need to make sure that flows down through the entire system. It would only take us back to where the system was 30 years ago.

mrz · 04/07/2010 11:16

minimathsmouse
"When in fact level 4 basically means your child has rote learnt a few basic number facts and can calculate a half!! PLEASE!"

I'm not sure which SAT papers you've seen but ..

For children to attain level 4, they need to:

find the value of each digit in large numbers and decimals?
order a set of numbers by identifying significant digits?
position numbers on a number line?
round whole numbers to the nearest 10, 100 or 1000?
round decimal numbers to the nearest whole number?
use rounding to find an approximate answer before tackling tricky calculations?
multiply and divide whole numbers by 10, 100 or 1000?
use a known fact to answer linked decimal facts?
create and continue number sequences involving decimal numbers?
interpret decimal numbers in the context of measures such as money and length?
add and subtract numbers with up to two decimal places?
explain their steps in calculation methods referring to the value of digits.?
read and write the same time, using alternative notations, for example, digital, 12- or 24-hour clock?
locate required information in a timetable or a calendar?
convert between units of time, for example, recognise that 140 secs = 2 mins 20 secs?
add times and find time differences, converting between units of time as necessary?
draw time lines to support accurate calculation involving time?
break money problems into steps and identify each calculation required?
record working for each stage of multi-step problems involving money?
use calculators to solve money problems, recording each calculation that is done?
interpret calculator displays in the context of money, recognising, for example, that 4.2 in pounds ? represents £4.20 or that 10.6666667 would round up to £10.67.
work out the size of each interval, count along the scale to check and label marks?
recognise how the value of each interval changes when the start or end label changes?
identify points between two marks and estimate their value?
read values from scales that are horizontal, vertical or circular as on a clock face?
interpret scales on graphs and charts, annotating the scale to support accuracy?
use measuring equipment accurately in the context of length, weight and capacity?
use their readings to calculate differences and solve problems involving scales?
use the relationship between units of measure to convert units, where appropriate
recognise different types of graphs and charts and understand their key features?
use all of the relevant information, including titles, headings and labels, in order to understand what ? information a graph is presenting
work out the value of each interval on the scale, annotating the axis for accuracy?
estimate the value of points between two marks on the scale of an axis?
locate the required information to answer a question?
draw lines onto line graphs to read required information accurately?
identify the calculation(s) that need to be carried out, using the data collected in order to answer ? questions and problems
describe and record the steps involved in solving a problem using data
describe 2-D shapes using a wide range of properties including number of sides, equal sides, ? number of right angles, equal angles and number of lines of symmetry
describe 3-D shapes using number and shape of faces, number of edges and vertices, equal edges?
recognise parallel and perpendicular lines, including in 2-D shapes?
classify a set of shapes using various criteria and record using diagrams including Venn diagrams, ? Carroll diagrams and tree diagrams
draw 2-D shapes accurately using different grids or using rulers and protractors?
build 3-D shapes using construction kits or by drawing nets?
visualise the result of reflecting, rotating or translating a 2-D shape and test their ideas?
recognise that the length of each side and the size of each angle do not change when a shape is ? reflected, rotated or translated.

slightly more to it that you think really!