So am I right to think that the only reason children's entry to school can't be deferred is...

[emkana]

... that the government wants to be able to compare "like with like" for their SATS/GCSE statistics.

Is it me or is that outrageous? Where are the children's needs taken into account in this?

I took ds for his school visit this afternoon and it's just blatantly obvious that he's not ready for school. He's just not. So I can wait till he turns five... but he still has to join his peer group, when he'd do so much better if he could join reception next year.

[bangs head against wall]

I know. It is absolutely outrageous that we aren't allowed to keep our kids back a year if they need it.

Almost every other country in the world encourages this....

My child is still suffering because I wasn't able to keep her back.

It's bloody madness. I've just got back from Italy and no one can believe that we start our kids at school at four. I also worry about my son (and I'm not being a PFB - he's my second child but his sister was ready, he just isn't). If I do defer then, as I understand it, he risks losing his place at the decent school we've managed to get him into.

the thing is, you CAN keep them back a year if necessary. my friend's little boy has just done this, though he does have SN so maybe a bit different, but it stands to reason that if they can do it for one they surely can do it for others?
I also was at school with someone who came in from a private school and was jumped ahead a year

so although you'd have a fight on your hands I think you might be able to do it?

You can defer their place until the term after they are five.

Yes you can PiratePrincess, but they still have to join their age group then, which is no help at all.

tbf I think the issue is not created until the children age, it makes a huge difference to have children one yr older in yr 6 as puberty hits around that time. As school we had an issue with a child who was held back as out insurance company woul not cover for an over 11 using primary age equipment.

Move to Scotland. Here, deferral means defferal

... or even deferral

I don't think the age of puberty is an issue - have you seen the normal variation in a year 6 class these days? Some of the girls look 16 already, and some look about 8; the boys rarely look quite so teenage, but there can still be height differences of 30cm.

I think it's just because the schools and local authorities couldn't cope with the uncertainty over numbers in each year. And I don't think they would trust parents to make the decision over school readiness, so that would mean a whole new system of pre-school testing.... (I'd be interested to know how it works in Scotland, prettybird - is it just up to the parents?)

The system of fixed maximum class sizes and the overcrowding of popular schools in England means there is no flexibility to move children up or down as they do in other countries, or indeed at private schools in the UK.

(I have an August-born DS who definitely wasn't ready for school at 4 and three weeks, but we were living overseas so he didn't start school until the September after he turned 5. When we moved back to the UK he rejoined his own age group (who had had one year more schooling) and had absolutely no problems.)

I think the rational was that they need to be in the year group where they won't get old enough to leave compulsory education before they've taken their GCSEs. It's to avoid the situation where children leave school with no qualifications not because they're not capable of sitting them but because they could by law.

Now they're raising the school leaving age that argument doesn't quite stack up though...

In Scotland if your child turns 5 between March 1st lets say 2010 and February 28th 2011 he/she will start school in August 2010. Therefore every child who starts school in August will usually be aged between 4 and a half or 5 and a half. If your child has a birthday between October and February you can choose to defer their entry in the school system until the following August. People quite often do this for boys, my dd2,who is in P1 has boy in her class who will turn 7 in November as he was kept back a year. I believe it's quite a common thing to do if you feel your child would benefit from waiting.

I agree Emkana, the system doesn't seem to treat children as individuals. It's one of the reasons I'm home educating my younger daughter. There's no way she could thrive at school this year. I'm sure she'd do much better starting in Reception a year later, though she might struggle even so.

Some parents find that after a year or two or three of home education, the difference between their children and their same-age peers is not as great as it was when they were little, and they can then cope OK in a class with their age peers. And some just give school a miss indefinitely.

Hand on heart when DS1 was about to start school at 4.3 months I would have said he was categorically not ready.

He is now in Yr2 and doing great. They do tar everyone with the same brush but it all comes down to the school they end up in and how they cope with children who hit 5 within the first month and those who are just 4.

I know that those parents whose children were 4 in the September who had to wait until they were almost 5 were all saying how ready their children were by Christmas

My Ds will be 4 and 3 months when he starts school. I think he is too young to be at school full time. At the school he will go to (daughters already go) in recpetion they spend the morning learning through play much like nursery. In the afternoon they do more learning through work. I will judge for myself when he is ready to go full time. I will pick him up before/after lunch until I feel he is ready to be at school all day. The school will not be pleased as it will affect their attendance record but as he doesn't legally need to be there until the september after I don't think they can do anything about it.

It won't affect their attendance record until he is five going.

"Maybe a small crossover, so for example if your child is a June/July/August birthday you can delay a year, so the potential spread is 15 months maximum would be a good idea. "

The problem with this is you will then find parents saying my child is 14 months younger than the eldest in the class ...

there has to be a cut off somewhere unless we go back to the days when every child started school on their fifth birthday (and children started school at any point in the year) but then you would have other parents saying my child is ready for school and has to wait "x" months until they are five ...

I'm interested in people's experience of this. OK so my DS is only 10 months so we're a fair way away! But he was extremely premature and is an August baby although he was due in November. He's small and likely to remain so, and may well be a bit behind. So I am already worried about school entry and planning for a potential fight to hold him back a year.

WillbeanChariot it very much depends upon where you live but there are only a few LAs that will defer entry and allow children to start in reception most insist children rejoin their peers in Y1 (meaning they have missed reception completely)

i would hope that a reception class has 1-2 teaching assistants to help look after the kids, especially the younger ones - that is certainly the case in my dds school. The reception year is very play based with lots of play times. Also always have space for quiet rest with bean bags and story time so it really isnt full on school at that age. We have been offered the chance for the younger ones to do half days from sept so that might help with energy levels for your child - you might be pleasantly surprised

I know children in our school are not allowed to defer.

What a minority of parents do is mornings only - attendance isn't recoreded until the term after their 5th birthday.

In Year 1 they are still being mainly taught the basics of reading and numeracy so the part-time children don't miss out.

Lalalonglegs: But the last two years of Italian nursery are very much concentrated on reading, writing and elementary number skills. (ie like reception and Yr 1 in the UK)

It's not like for like- dd has just finished her first year of Italian primary (she will be 7 in October) and they have 5 hours of intensive reading/writing/arithmatic every day with at least 3 hours of written homework afterwards.

I spend all my time here, explaining the differences in the Uk system to Italians, who, as you said, can't believe that in the UK children might start school at 4, until I explain to them that it's just a different name. What they do at the same age is virtually the same. A 6 yr old in Italy is doing more or less what a 6 yr old in the UK is doing, just in Yr 1 instead of Yr 3. (although I maintain the Italian system is harder) All children here, with very few exceptions do 3 full time years at nursery, so very few of them can't already read when they start school at 6 for example, and they are more or less expected to already know how to use joined up writing etc.

PS I used to be on the other side of the coin, thinking how PFB Italians were being not sending their babies to school until they were 6, until I saw what the poor little sods are expected to do when they get there!

In Germany, however, it is really just play, no literacy or numeracy, until they start school at 6. Once they get going they learn very very quickly though.

Yes, Bucharest is right to keep on re-iterating her point; other countries start school later but their kindergartens are very formal.

I know a spanish girl who at 3, in her nursery was sitting down each day and doing more writing than a child would do here in reception.

I guess if you keep a child out of school until they are five, even if they join their peer group they will just be that more ready and will catch up on no time.