Teachers advice - SATS KS1

[debs40]

Hi

I remember reading a thread a while back about teaching assessments and SATS. I got the feeling that my son's school were over-reliant on tests for guidance about a child's ability rather than using them as one part of the assessment.

I remember someone posting about offering a child the second harder paper if they did well in the first and teachers being a bit critical of that.

This has just happened to my son. His teacher said he did so well in the first she is going to try him on the second. He seems happy to be getting the praise as he has an ASD and has done really well to keep up with the pace this year. But does this suggest an over-reliance on testing?

Sounds like standard practice to me, I feel that you are overthinking it.

I agree, standard practice.
Wouldn't worry.
Your DS doesn't sound worried about it.

Hi thanks. I'm not overthinking. It's just that there were posts a while back saying that this was actually poor practice rather than 'standard' practice and I couldn't remember what had been said.

There is an over reliance on testing at the school generally. I suppose it's easier than monitoring and assessing!

Maybe it was just a small number of opinions that got over-represented among ppl who reply on MN.

The way Ofsted loves its paper trail, I suspect that your school is documenting their assessment procs in every way possible!

It's slightly worrying that they don't know enough about his attainment to give him the right test in the first place.

They shouldn't be giving him 2 tests - the rules are very clear and state a child may only be tested once.

I do think they sound over reliant on testing, but there isn't much you could do about it. If there is a discussion about your ds's attainment at a parent's evening, perhaps you could ask how they arrived at their judgement - if all they can talk about are the tests he has done, then you have your answer. A few schools are still like this, I'm afraid.

Thanks Feenie. You've been very helpful on these issues before.

I will ask those questions at parents' evening.

It is worrying that others seem to think this is standard practice.

Glad I can help

I agree with Feenie. I know where the children in my class are. They are given the appropriate paper for their level, simply to confirm my judgements.

Some schools clearly get the hang of this teacher assessment business better than others.

It's interesting.We get our yearly reports in April which always seemed a bit odd. But having been through SATS this year the procedure seems to be, little involvement/assessment of child until report. Sudden panic that some children are not up to scratch, apply extra resources to get them through the tests.

The school does optional, externally marked SATS from Y3 onwards which makes me think that this is the way of teaching.

Yippee. A class of 36 next year too!

It is legal apparently. Not at all ideal as he does get very anxious.

I am having a meeting with the head about provision as we need to apply for a statutory assessment - he has multiple needs.

He is happy at school at present and has some lovely friends (very important for a child on the spectrum!) but it could all go horribly wrong next year.

My youngest is also due to start school but if we move schools we probably need to move away from the area altogether as we have a grammar school system here which will have to be avoided eventually!!

Quote from Littlefish
'They are given the appropriate paper for their level, simply to confirm my judgements.'

I do see the reasons for not making children sit two papers, but doesn't this approcah limit children? It is well known children conform to expectations - why aren't these children given the chance to exceed your expectations?

Even if they did achieve level 3 on one paper, they would not be assessed as being a level 3, iyswim - one test does not a level 3 make. The focus of the paper is very narrow and is just one aspect of level '3ness' - many other different sources of evidence would be required to satisfy other level 3 requirements.

Teacher assessment happens throughout the year and children are assessed all the time in variety of ways. Far from being limited, children are constantly given the opportunity to shine as much as they possibly can, and as a teacher it's fantastic to be able watch them do this.

Yes, Feenie, I get what you are saying. It was simply the attitude of 'I know what they are capable of' that rang alarm bells for me. As you know, children can surprise us, and make great leaps in development in a short space of time. I would not like to think that a teacher had low expectations of any child.

As for SATs, I think they are fairly pointless for the individual child, along with the whole assessment process which takes huges amount of time which could be spend teaching and encouraging children. I trust my DC's teachers to get the best from my children irrespective of what arbitary target they are supposed to meet and know that the SATs results are just a tiny part of a much bigger picture...

But that's the attitude of a decent teacher, CanterburySnails - Littlefish should know what they are capable of, because teacher assessment is continuous.

The 'whole assessment process' takes place right from Reception up to Y6 and means that we know exactly where each child is and where they need to go next. Otherwise, how would we know what to teach?

I would agree with you that the testing process is a waste of time, because as Littlefish says, it doesn't tell us anything we don't know already - and any half decent teacher should damn well know. It doesn't have anything to do with having low expectations, which don't fit in well with primary teaching at all.

Does the ability assessment overlap that much between the 2 papers; what I mean is, is it ever possible that for a borderline child it would make sense to sit lower paper and then upper paper because it's not clear cut what the test result is without both sets of results?

I don't even know how many or which papers DC sat.

"I trust my DC's teachers to get the best from my children irrespective of what arbitary target they are supposed to meet and know that the SATs results are just a tiny part of a much bigger picture"

I suppose that is the problem Canterburysnails, perhaps we don't all trust our dc's teachers. In my case, because, for most of the year, the teachers seemed to have very little idea of the children's ability. That's why the attitude towards tests is so alarming.

"Does the ability assessment overlap that much between the 2 papers; what I mean is, is it ever possible that for a borderline child it would make sense to sit lower paper and then upper paper because it's not clear cut what the test result is without both sets of results?"

No - because if a child was borderline between a 2a and a 3c, if they got 3c in the test, but all other assessments pointed to a 2a, then the teacher assessment would be a 2a.

You won't know which they sat, llijkk - but you could guess from the teacher assessment.

i LIKE reports in April
End of year reports give you nowhere to go with that same teacher. you tend to think " oh well see what happens next year"

I dont like schools that have a parents evening THEN reports.. vair odd

Canterbury Snails I share many of the same thought processes and concerns.

It does seem pointless to do the tests, if you are going to be marked down on the result if you have not shown you have the ability/current attainment at that level.

I believe DS would be working at perhaps a couple of sub levels higher if he sat with a higher ability group. I think he has more potential than he shows. Our ability groups are largely static and are not differentiated for literacy or maths. The teacher believes he is better placed as a high achiever amongst a lower achieving group. I don't agree and think that a child should at least have a chance to show they were capable of more or being stretched without this impacting on self esteem etc. As a mother I think gentle pushing and challenge is absolutely fine for DS but have listened to the teacher so far.

We have a situation where the same group of hard working girls have sat together in the top level group all year. They are all on the same level book band and all, I think, are working at the same level - I know that 3 of them are for certain. They all have extension work and are pulling away from the others although the next table down are all working to a high level also.

I go in to help and I look across at the visible industriousness and keenness to learn at these 'top' tables and then cast my eye to the my sons table on the other side of the classroom. The children were laughing and pretending to be various animals and one boy blew a raspberry at my son and knocked his own chair over for fun and high jinks. Crayons are being thrown and so on. It isn't terribly disruptive and done in good fun but the tangible difference between the top half and bottom half of the class is very obvious. My son copies the work ethic and the behaviour of the children in the group, so I can't but help wish he was in with the hardworking groups. He would begin to work harder I think.

Outside of school we do various other activities, in each case my son surprises us with what he is he is capable of. He isn't a genius but children, I believe, sometimes deliver what we expect of them.

In our seemingly fairly static ability groupings in the classroom it is as if sometimes the ability group 'levels' somehow are the main driver, the children fit them rather than the other way around. It's all very neat and tidy in terms of NC levels from top to bottom.

The teacher has told me that there are a few that she wanted to move down from the top group and has told the children in the past to pull their socks up but he fears a backlash and onslaught from the parents. I don't blame them. I wouldn't want my child moved out of the top group either!

I'm a former teacher and mother of a nearly 7 year old. IME ability groups should be flexible and mobile. Children change and develop in fits and starts, with some appearing very capable at the beginning of schooling and then others catch them up and often overtake.

My dd has mainly been in the top groups this year, but was moved to a lower group in maths to develop confidence in her own abilities. She has recently been moved again, as have many of her peers. She barely noticed SATs taking place - apart from enjoying the quietness when the year ones went to another class one day! I have complete confidence that her teacher knows exactly where she is now and what her capabilities are. However, some of these posts suggest that that's not happening across the board, which is a shame.

OP - I think it does sound like your son's teacher is playing catch up, and perhaps doesn't have a great idea of your son's abilities. I agree a chat at Parent's Evening (or even before then) might be a good idea.

In most schools ability groups are flexible and mobile - from lesson to lesson in some cases.

Exactly Feenie. That's as it should be! Am amazed how many on MN tell of very rigid ability groups at their children's schools...