Yr4: disparity between comprehension and written work - how to address?

[Acanthus]

I'd really welcome some advice regarding my DS2. He is 9 and in year 4. He is reasonably bright but not exceptionally so. He is always very well behaved and will stay on task but I would not say he is especially self-motivated. He reads at home for at least 30mins each day, and more at school. His choice of books is not especially high-level - Jeremy Strong, Warrior Cats, and Beast Quest feature highly though he has also read all the Harry Potters and I steer him onto other stuff when I can.

He is at a well-regarded state primary with 34 in the class. There is a very good TA in the class as well as the teacher (because there is a little girl in the class with physical disabilities which qualify her for 1 to 1 assistance).

This year has not gone smoothly. They had one teacher for the first term, who retired at Christmas. They then had an NQT for the spring term who went on sick leave for the first half of this term. Two supply teachers and the aforementioned TA covered that time and now the NQT is back. So there has been a lack of continuity, to put it mildly.

We are in an 11 plus area and the school has a policy of streaming the children for maths and literacy at the start of year 5.

I have seen one of the senior teachers to discuss DS2s year end assessments and he has level 4b for maths and reading (comprehension) but only 3c for writing. This is not as good as he is capable of, I am sure. I am not sure how common it is for there to be a difference between understanding and written work, but 4 sub-levels seems like a big gap to me.

I have thought of tutoring for a short time, or possibly going in to see the NQT and asking her to set weekly assignments for us to do at home and her to mark (in detail!)

WWYD?

Personally, I would continue to encourage him to read everything he can get his hands on. The writing will come on if he reads. It's vERY common to have a gap between writing and reading. It's only one level difference (the sub-levels don't really exist, just to try and prove to parents that children are improving ).

You could try to encourage him to enjoy writing every day - shopping lists/emails/ instructions for games/recipes etc...

But try not to worry, it's probably a little unsettled from his funny year but 3b is fine for Year 4 I think and he will settle next year. I guess if you want him to pass 11+ then you will have to check next year or so... but perhaps save your money for Year 6 tutoring (if necessary).

3B is what would be expected really at end of year 4 (I teach year 4 myself). I'm not sure if tutoring is really the way to go. As Adair said, lots and lots of reading will help his writing.

By reading and hearing stories and non fiction we internalise the structure and patterns which then helps us write our own stories as we can use those structures and patterns as models.

It's not uncommon for children to be better at reading than they are at writing. Some of it will depend on the assessments used e.g. one off tests or continuous teacher assessments - the QCA tests for example sometimes produce some very bizarre writing levels.

I think the best thing to do would be to ask to meet the class teacher and have a chat about what your son needs to do in order to improve his writing. It may be that the school are using a system whereby if one element is missing a child cannot be considered to be performing at higher than a 3c e.g. inconsistent use of capital letters and full-stops. It may be that his writing is fine per se but isn't reaching the upper levels because he's not using brackets, ambitious vocabulary, direct speech etc. Until you ask the teacher what exactly it is that his writing lacks I think it's a bit tricky to advise on whether or not tutoring would be beneficial. I would definitely steer clear of demanding that the teacher (NQT or otherwise) set and mark extensive homework assignments though. I certainly wouldn't agree to provide detailed marking for assignments that parents had demanded because they want their child to go to a grammar school!?!

Do you know if the problems are down to the physical aspect of handwriting or the quality of what he's actually trying to write? Is it a fine-motor skill thing which is slowing him down? How is he with Lego and other fiddly things? It may be worth talking to the school SENCo re techniques to speed him up/help him to find it easier. Sometimes really simple things like a sloping desk/differently shaped pencil will help.

Thanks everyone. It's not a fine-motor thing, his actual handwriting isn't bad at all, it's the content that is the issue. He's good at Lego and fiddly things, also good at jigsaws. Rubbish at drawing but I don't think that's a pointer for dyspraxia here - he just can't draw!

I think his writing as is SE13 says - fine in itself but not consistent with extensive vocabulary and punctuation. I'll go and talk to the teacher, and see how he can improve. I won't mention grammar school, (I wouldn't have done anyway, honestly, I was just trying to explain why I don't want to let it go) but I thought it was fair enough to say that he hadn't made much progress this year and could do with a bit of extra input now?

DS has a big discrepancy between his written work and his reading and comprehension. for him it is partly a motor thing (his handwriting is dreadful), but there is more to it than that. He is very enthusiastic, has a story to tell and rushes headlong into things without thinking about including all the things that you need to access the higher levels. His teachers tear their hair out because he is therefore underperforming (compared with the other stuff), but at least we only have SATs to worry about (which I don't ) and not the 11+. Must be v frustrating!

Thank you chuck, I'll bear that in mind.

ChuckBartowski - My DS has got dyspraxia, and again has a noticable discrepency between his reading and writing. He too is in Year 4, and was a 3c in writing last time they would tell me. I don't know what his reading level is, but he reads all the time, and appears to be very good to me.

Do you have any advice about what you can do if this discrepancy is caused by dyspraxia? All the help we have had is a few OT sessions for his handwriting. I didn't realise that the content of his writing could be affected as well as the legiblity of it....

Acanthus, something I say to the children I teach (only those who 'get' the whole levels thing) is that if they are aiming for a L4 there should be 4 different connectives, types of punctuation and wow words in each paragraph. If they are going for a L5 I would expect to see 5 of each per paragraph. I also get them to underline in different coloured pencils e.g. yellow for connectives and tally them up in the margin so when they edit their work they can see what's missing.

It's a bit formulaic in some ways but once they get the hang of it their writing usually improves.

Obviously the punctuation and connectives need to be used appropriately or it's a bit pointless!

Blimey, SE13. Do Y4s really think about levels? My ds wouldn't have a clue!

(sorry for thread hijack, Acanthus)

Whoops, I usually teach Y6 so wouldn't know about the thoughts of Y4s. Y6 children often know about levels so the advice is what I give to them - it would work for Y4s too though!

Thanks SE13 I think something along those lines would help him understand what he needs to do. The problem this year I think has been largely lack of feed back from the teacher(s!) to him.

SE13-

would you be as kind as to give a short list of the sort of connectives you'd like to see in a Y4-5's work?

We are in pretty much the same situation (though my DS2, Y4, couldn't be considered 'bright' by most measures!). He got 4C for comprehension, 3A for maths- and 2A for his writing...

His teacher has identified his writing as being his weak point. It is quite legible but the content is very un-sophisticated, unpunctuated and with liberal use of the word 'then' as a connective...

DS2 is to undertake a half page writing task each weekend which the teacher will assess. Initially I would like to provide DS2 with a short list of words he might like to consider as connectives he can refer to. I have asked the teacher as well but replies via the school email can take days and I really want to strike whilst the iron's hot!

Thanks, SE13. Sounds like I might not be quite as negligent as I thought then

Haven't been on here for a whole 24+ hours!?! If you do a search for VCOP+punctuation;pyramid it should produce a list of websites on which you'll be able to view the Ros Wilson 'punctuation pyramid' which is a hierarchy of punctuation marks.

Search for VCOP+connectives and the first result will take you to a document that gives you an entire VCOP pyramid. I'd advise against using the 'ambitious vocab' lists and the sentence openers as these need to be much more genre specific than the pyramid suggests but the connectives and punctuation bits are useful.

Thanks very much for that. We are focussing on the reading, as you advised, and will continue to do so over the summer. I've decided not to go and see the teacher having heard on the grapevine that she hasn't been kept on for next year.

Do go and see the teacher... if she's an NQT chances are she'll have had a horrible year and is going to have to start afresh in September. A query here and there from a parent may be what she needs to ensure her next class get more/better feedback with how to improve their writing.

I think she must have had a pretty horrible year as she was ill enough to take 8 weeks off in her NQ year and was probably hoping to be kept at the school! Yes, I take your point

SE Mummy
The VCOP advice is really useful - thanks for adding the tip, Im printing the pyramid now