KS2 Results, would these put you off?

[DRAGON30]

My sil is looking at schools for her 8yr old daughter (they have just come back from abroad, so are a bit out of the loop). Their local Primary is small and homely, but doesn't have a particularly good record at KS2 . I know it's not the be all and end all when choosing a school, but at the moment it is ranked at 243 of around 300 schools in their county, and only 62% of pupils achieved the expected level 4 in maths (but around 80% reached the required level in science and english, I think). The maths results have always been on the low side, and she is asking me what to do. I don't know!! - how much importance would you attach to figures like that?

Everyone is different Dragon30. Personally, I would go and have a look around the school to get a feel for the place. For me, it is more important that my child is going to be happy and feel secure in school. How well they do academically has got alot to do with the school but parents play a huge part as well and if your friend gives her duaghter lots of support and encouragement, I think she should do well no matter where she is. Hope that helps, it is such an important decision for parents!

The maths result is low but the others are respectable, imho. Agree with Wigglemama, you have to visit the school and read the whole Ofsted report to make an informed choice.

Thanks for the reply. I think my SIL is struggling to get her head aroud the UK's system !(she's Norwegian, and was appalled to discover she should be sending her youngest to school in 2011, when he's 4.5).
She has looked at the school, it was fine, but not really that wonderful (small class-rooms etc, and she has heard that some parents have beeen 'told-off' for giving their children extra help, teaching them the wrong way and getting them "too far ahead"!! ).
There are a few alternatives farther away (and all with better results), but this is her village school, so she also has to consider friends for her daughter to play with etc. I was just wondering if other people would consider rather poor results to be a deal-breaker, and outrank distance/local friends and a small-school atmosphere.

Local would win out for me, easily. I would count small school as a negative, though.

Rather than worrying about the raw 62% figure I would be more worried about the value added figure i.e. the improvement the children make whilst at the school.

However, if the school is ranked 243/300 I would think that the value added is probably not great either.

I agree that visiting the school is worthwhile to get a feel but I would asking questions about how they are addressing the low maths results because they should be doing something. Did they have a particular problem in the last year? Do they always score badly in maths? And what is the national and county average for maths scores and how do they compare?

I would also look at the last Ofsted report. Ofsted reports aren't the be all and end all and no one thing 100% reliable indicator of how a child will do at school but getting all the data is useful in getting a bigger picture of the school.

If I couldn't get satisfactory answers then I think it would affect my judgement on the school because no matter how warm and friendly it was, the children are still there to be taught the basics and I have to say, 62% would be ringing alarm bells with me.

Bear in mind that if it is a small school then the results percentage-wise are easily skewed.

In other words, say there are only 20 chn doing SATs - it only takes 8 to do less well than level 4 to make it 60%.

I agree would go and look round and see what it feels like - for me that's much more important than what someone else's DC achieved.

Local is best IMO tho I would also not be mad keen on a very small school. How big is it?

Niecie - helpful post, thank you. I have looked at the Ofsted, and it says it is a good school, flags up the maths scores, and says it is being addressed. BUT, as far as I can gather, the results have been between 60 - 66% for the last few years.
The results do seem at odds with the actual intake at the school. It's broadly 'white middle-class' for want of a better expression. Very few on free school meals, no english as second language children, and average number with SEN).The ofsted does mention the small Council house estate in it's general description, (why??), but it's hardly an urban wasteland - very nice, well kept, and many sold off ( Ex-local Authority 2 bed bugalow for £230 k, anyone?).(And I am NOT implying that mixed-race, poorer schools are bound to have bad results, just trying to give an impression of the area the school is in). I do think I would expect more from a school in that sort of catchment.

Clary, there's 102 children at the moment.

Gosh that is pretty small isn't it.

That would be 14 in a year then - yes, easy for results to be skewed.

But that wouldn't explain the repeated result of 60%. Hmm. Worth looking round and asking the HT the question.

It all suggests to me that whoever has responsibility for the maths curriculum (assuming they do have a teacher in charge of various parts of the curriculum like my boys' school do) has not got much of a handle on it. Or perhaps nobody is taking responsibility at all and there is no overall plan for improvement. Definitely questions to ask.

I do agree though that with the school being so small it doesn't take many underperforming children to skew the numbers - 3 children but not every year.

Just as a matter of interest, are any children getting level 5? The demographic of the school aren't dissimilar to ours, although my boys' schools are larger as we are a bit more urban but still predominantly white middle class, low free school meals, etc,even similar sort of house prices. Level 4's + are about 87% for maths at KS2 and level 5's about 50% I think. Not the best or worst of schools - I'm just mentioning it for comparison purposes and to say I can see why you would be worried.

There were 13 children taking the KS2 exam and 8% got a level 5 - I think that means one child!.
My SIL's choice is basicly between this school, a very large school in the town about 1.3/4 miles away, which has 90 children in Year R, and other small schools within about 5 miles of her home. They all have better grades than her village school.

In our local school there are often only nine children doing SATs. Some of these won't turn up on the day of the exam (various social problems going on there) despite the school's best efforts. For some small schools SATs league tables just don't show the real picture at all.

One year, one child was ill on the day and although and that skewed things badly.

DS2 had 90 children in Yr R with him last year. I can't fault the school for their teaching and opportunities for learning they can present and they get excellent results so I would go with the big school but that is what we are used to. The advantage is of course if they get one not so great teacher the others can make up for their short comings until they either leave or get more training.

I personally don't think 1 3/4 miles is too far although it isn't walkable with a 4 yr old.

Depends how good your niece is at maths too. A bright child will always do OK but it is the rest that will be affected by less than great teaching and management.

My DCs go to a similar size school, probably with a similar demographic.

The stats result fluctuate widely - you need to take take into account that, although the average intake is maybe 15, some years will have 20, some will have 10, depending on the age range of the children in the area. For example, my DS (Yr 6) is in a large year group of 24 children, DD (yr 3) has only 8.

In my DS's current year 6 around 7 children will gain 5s, most will gain 4s and a few on the SN register will not achieve this level.

When my DD is in Yr 6, unless there is sudden increase in the numbers in her class, then it is unlikely than they will have a 50% rating for level 4 because out of the 8 children, 4 are on IEP or SN. It doesn't give an accurate reading of the standard of teaching (which is very good, on the whole).

I would try to see the school in action - look at the children, are they happy? are they polite to visitors to the school? Do they answer any questions you might be able put to them? What is your general feeling about the school - is it a happy place and do have the sense that the children and staff like being there?

My personal opinion is that community and happiness are as important as learning for primary years and that with the right input from home, children will do well regardless.

With very small schools, sats results can be a bit misleading. For example, 100 children in the school; that's only 14 - 15 children doing sats.

Often, sats results only reflect in the intake of the school, but you are saying that the school is quite middle-class.

I would suggest to your SIL that she goes and speaks to the head and ask about the results. If she fobbed off, then you know that there is a problem with the school. If the head takes time to go things with your friend, then it's probably a good place to go to school.

Sometimes, a cosy middle class village school can rest on its laurels a bit!

But, being local and being able to walk to school is a very important factor (for me anyway).