Another appeal for help with primary appeal!

[foodfairy]

Just wanted to get some wise mumsnet wisdom on school appeal. Figure we having nothing to lose by appealing, but just wandered if there were any cases people had won using the following arguments:

Measuring point of school. This appears to be the school office, not the centre of the school (which has expanded - nearer to us - in the last 3 years) or the nearest school gate to us. Using the nearest school gate as the measuring point, we would be within the catchment. They measure as the crow flies by the way.

Also, is well known in the area that people rent for 6 months to get into the school. Is there any argument to made that the council is behaving unreasonably by not effectively monitoring this? Statistically it seems very unlikely that so many 4 year olds live so close to the school.

Just my starting thoughts -thanks for any advice.

This will be rather quick, as I need to get to bed, but ....

Measuring: You certainly have grounds for appeal if you think the measurement was wrong - they used the wrong address (say). You also have grounds for appeal if the published oversubscription criteria say one thing but the LEA does something else; ie the published criteria say from the school gate but they actually take the measurement from the school office. However, it's a different matter again if you just don't approve of the fixed point they have used. Presumably (unless there was some huge inconsistency) they used the same measuring point for everyone so you can't credibly (in my view) argue that you've been unfairly disadvantaged.

Does the school have a fixed catchment area (in which case measurement from home to school is less of an issue, surely) or are places allocated on distance from home to school? By all means double-check that their measurement was accurate, but I don't think you'll get very far by arguing that they ought to change the measuring process just for you, to bring you within the catchment area (if that's what it is). The nature of catchment areas is that you're either in or you're out.

Proof of address: Most LEAs have systems in place to check that people live where they claim to - double-checks against electoral roll, demanding sight of utility bills etc. Fraudulent applications are one of the very few circumstances in which LEAs can take places away once allocated. If some of the applications are actually fraudulent (as opposed to playing the system by living in the area just long enough to be classed as resident there) and if you can provide evidence of fraud, then it is possible that the subsequent removal of places will bring you nearer to the top of the waiting list, but I doubt that an appeal hearing is the right time or place for this. The appeal panel can't (in my view) give you a place on the basis that you would have got one if all the 'bogus' applicants hadn't got there first - that's just speculation. If it really is the case that the admission process is so incredibly lax that anyone can claim to live anywhere then you might just have a case for arguing at appeal that the admission process can't be relied upon.

Will this be an infant class size appeal? If so, you need to show that some serious error or flaw in the admissions process has led to your child missing out on a place; that the admission arrangements weren't properly implemented or did not comply with mandatory provisions (see para 3.19 of the appeals code, on the DCSF (as was) website).

Do you have a school place for your child?

Sorry, long and disjointed post. No time to edit! Am sure others will be along soon with more advice.

Nothing much to add to Panelmember. You definitely need to check what the admission criteria say about measurements. If they specify that measurements are from the main gate or from the centre of the school, they must measure from that point. If they haven't done so that is a mistake.

Thanks for help, good to get level headed advice. Rather realise that I'm clutching at straws. Just cross that we are so close to the catchment (eg. if we lived 3 doors away would be in) and still miles down the waiting list - No14. Feel v. frustrated and while we have a place at a school I think it will make me cross for the next 7 years to drive directly past 3 schools which are nearer, rather than walking 5mins to the school.

Sadly once people at the school they tend to stay, even when they mysteriously move further away after 6 months and have to drive kids to school each day so not much movement on the list.

Hmmm, but could you argue that, say, a LA is cherry-picking for a school, if changing the reference point would change the demographic of the school?

It does seem unfair if children from an estate 1 mile to the east of the school perimeter are less able to get a place than children 1 mile to the west of the perimeter.

I don't think so. Whether the school is using distance-to-school or catchment area (or distance-to-school within catchment area), it has to measure the distance from somewhere. It's not unusual for the distance to be taken from the school office as the administrative (if not the physical) centre of the school.

I sympathise with the OP but I think the point here is wherever the distance is measured from, there is always likely to be someone who lives just a few metres too far to get a place. But as OP says, it's always worth appealing. She may manage to persuade a panel that she has wrongfully been deprived of a place for her child - although in an infant class size appeal the bar is set very high indeed.

There is no mileage in considering the actual point where distances are measured from, you would simply be using energy that would be best directed towards other things that will determine where your child goes to school.

I was not clear from your posts whether the school has an admission criteria which is a catchment zone or whether your comments are about how close you are to getting a place based on straight line distance. If it is only 3 doors and you are 14th on the waiting list then I would check carefully that you are being correctly measured. The only effective way that you can do that is to go to appeal where the distance of the last admitted pupil and yourself will be disclosed. Not saying there is anything wrong but you need in your own mind to have covered all angles.

The issue of parents renting is an on-going problem but is not one that an appeal panel can get involved in. That is rightly for the LA to investigate and deal with as necessary. So if you know of any absolutely obvious case then you should report it. I would have to say it is unlikely that 14 will have put forward illegal address details but you never know!

Sorry should be clearer, the distance is measured in a straight line. We are 0.017miles away from this line.

Agree probably not 13 people putting forward rented bedsit addresses, but just struggling to understand how we are so near to the school geographically, but so far from getting in. Not like there is a big block of flats near to the school. . .

I've no idea of a good way of allocating school places in overcrowded urban areas, but just seems crazy driving my kids to school when we have 3 schools which are easy walks. People from out of London and friends abroad look at me as if crazy when explaining what goes on.

So you are just 27 metres away from this line? That does sound barmey.

It is possible that some of the 13 people ahead of you on the waiting list are late applicants.

Given how close it is, I would agree with Admission that you should appeal. It may simply confirm that they got the distance right but you never know.

Thanks again for all your help - feeling a bit helpless and frustrated esp with all the heat.

A quick question on appeals. I fear they have measured the distance correctly (have been a bit google earth obsessive), but will they check this at the appeal. Also they have already confirmed the distance of the last admitted child in the first round of offers (which is how I know I'm 30m's out). Will they provide further information on admissions at the appeal - e.g if people are admitted off the waiting list will this be disclosed?

Yes, the LA has to disclose the information you already know and also any changes since the initial allocation. Part of the requirement on the panel is to ensure that the admission arrangements have been correctly administered.

Will they check this at the appeal? The LA will confirm that in their opinion the distances are correct. To be honest it is really for the appealant to cast sufficient doubt over the quoted distance that it becomes necessary for the distances to be checked.

It is almost for sure that you have a number of late applicants who are nearer than you to the school and this is why you have gone down the list.