anyone appealing in Dudley?

[2ismorethanenough]

Hi, is anybody else appealing for a Dudley ptimary school? Anyone with experience of Dudley panels/appeal hearings?

Thanks

No specific experience of Dudley but the system is the same everywhere. Happy to help with advice if you give some more details or tell us what type of advice you need.

Thank you for your swift response.
I think i have a pretty good case for stage 2, it's mainly making sure i have everything covered for stage 1.

The school is not bound by infant class size prej as they have 2 classes with 20 children in them in foundation and yr 1 and yr 2. The NOR is 280 with a PAN of 40. They have 40 in each year group but operate a comples split-year class system in the upper years. Still awaiting confirmation of these splits from the head and admissions but they are stalling and seem reluctant to help. (for example i know they have a year 5/6 class and a pure yr 6 class). It is not officially 2 form entry throughout the school IYSWIM.

They currently have one extra child in yr 1 (who we know, he was admitted as an extra due to SEN after the normal round of admissions last year).

No one has ever won appeals for this school in the past. However they are expanding and new building should be ready for this September, so i'm hoping i can use that. I suspect that will be the basis of everyone (all 12 of us) trying to convince the panel that the school can take more children.

I was hoping someone might know parts of the Admissions Code i can use to back up my case?

I would appreciate any help or advice. What sort of questions should i ask the Admissions Authority? Up until now they have been a bit unhelpful and tell me i have to wait for their statement 7days before the hearing!

You will get the class arrangement for the upper years. The LA will have to include that in their case for the appeal. I suspect they may be snowed under preparing for appeals at the moment and therefore aren't in a hurry to send you information that they have to include in their case.

Off the top of my head, I would expect 5 or 6 classes in juniors. I think 5 is more likely with an average of 32 children in each if the school is full. If they have 6 classes the average class size would be 27. Either way it is unlikely to be significant for your case.

I find it it surprising that "no-one has ever won appeals for this school in the past". These will not be infant class size appeals so you don't have to show that the LA has made a mistake (although it still helps if they have). On average around 35% of appeals are successful. For a school with a PAN of 40 to have never lost an appeal would be unusual.

You can certainly mention the new building but the panel may be nervous about basing decisions on a building which isn't finished yet.

It would be worth finding out the calculated net capacity. It sounds like the agreed net capacity is 280 and that they are currently full. The calculated net capacity is expressed as a range and might be, for example, 280-310. If they have set the agreed net capacity at the bottom of the calculated range you should bring this up as it indicates that the school can take more children without undue problems.

You should definitely ask whether having an extra child in year 1 has caused any problems. It is quite likely that the answer will be no, or that any problems relate more to his SEN than the fact that he is an additional child. If they've had an extra child in Reception and Year 1 and the sky hasn't fallen in, that helps to convince the panel that the school may be able to handle one or two additional children.

I don't think there is anything in the Admissions Code that is particularly helpful here. That mainly comes into play where the LA is doing something wrong, which they don't seem to be on the information you've posted.

The main problem you've got is the number of appeals. Whilst it isn't impossible, it is unlikely that you will persuade the panel that the school can take 12 more children. The panel will therefore be looking at whether the prejudice to your child from not being admitted outweighs the prejudice to the school from admitting your child. Make sure you have the best case possible for stage 2.

Thanks PRH, you really seem to know what you are talking about! Have you served on panels?

In terms of points i might have about why i think the school can accomodate more children (stage 1), do i have to raise them as points or turn them into questions that i aalready know the answer to just to make the points heard?

We have had some paperwork through this morning confirming that shtage 1 will be a group hearing. I don't want to be the one to say EVERYTHING but at the same time i don't want to say nothing. How do you think is the best way to play it?

I'm from the other side of the fence - I've appeared in front of appeal panels and won by knowing the Admissions Code and Appeal Code better than the LA.

In theory you need to make your points in stage 1 as questions to the LA's representative, e.g. "I understand there is a new building opening in September. What effect will this have on the school's ability to cope with additional pupils?" The chair to the panel may allow you a certain amount of latitude but be prepared to bring it all up as questions.

If in doubt about any particular point, bring it up in stage 1. Whilst most panels are fairly flexible it is not unknown for the chair to stop you from bringing points up in stage 2 if they should have been brought up in stage 1.

You seem to be doing your homework and preparing properly. You may find that many of the other parents haven't prepared as thoroughly as you. I hope that you will find other parents bring up some points. They may even bring up points you hadn't thought of. But they may not bring up anything in which case you will have to be the one to say everything. Be prepared to play it by ear. You'll soon figure out how well the other parents have prepared. And don't worry - it certainly won't do you any harm if you are the only one bringing up points in stage 1.

you are so good at this! I've purchased the services of John Chard, but am yet to reap the rewards!

I really am very prepared, i don't think there is mych point in going through this process if you're not.

Once i have had the LEA statement i may get back to you if that's ok to see what you think!

It is nearly always the case with a grouped first stage of the appeal that there are one or two parents who will ask the bulk of the questions. Do not be worried by that as the panel will almost for sure be asking the same or similar questions, so you are just saving them a job!

As a panel member I would be puzzled by the fact that nobody has ever won an appeal. With two classes of 20 in each of the foundation and infant year groups it is almost an invitation to allow some more into the class. So i suspect that either the rooms are small or that the junior classes are large in numbers at present.

If they are expanding, is it just one classroom or more? Personally I can't see the logic of putting up one classroom, so my guess would be 3 to make it a 2 form entry school, assuming 11 classrooms at present. The other question is why is it going to be ready for September and no change to the PAN - I wonder whether it is for a nursery?

What you should try to discover is the agreed Admission Number for September 2011 entry. This will by now be decided and it will be contained in a report somewhere on the LA site as any changes have to be formally agreed by the Council. If they have an Executive then it will be agreed there and it will have been sometime between February and the beginning of April. If it is going to be 60, then this is good news for you. It will be entitled something like schools admission arrangements for 2011

If it is going to 2 form entry then there is a good case with the building under construction and an agreed decision to go to 2 form entry to argue that the school be allowed up to 60 into the year group, for this September. I would certainly be quite happy to do that under the circumstances it was going to 2 form entry in 2011. I can however guarantee you I will not be on your panel in Dudley!

The panel has to make a decision at stage 1 whether the school has made its case not to admit more or whether the school can admit all 12 of the appealants. They cannot make a decision to just let say 4 in at this stage. In stage 2 they listen to all the personal reasons for admission. If you have done a good job in stage 1 then the panel will have decided that they can't let all 12 in but that the level of prejudice to the school is low. Then anybody with a good case for admission will potentially be able to overcome the level of prejudice to the school and be offered a place. So it is well worth trying to knock down the schools case in stage 1, even if it is not totally successful.

Thanks Admission,
The new buils will house the Foundation children and Nursery children (separated by a dividing wall) from my calculations of square footage regs, they can increase foundation from 40 to 43 in light of the extra space. They will also have gained the extra space within the main school building once Foundation is relocated into this new build.

I am trying hard to gain proposed PAN for 2011 but not had much luck yet. Admissions not being very helpful (they think i'm a right pain) but i have emailed a couple of senior people in Children's Services and am awaiting a reply.

However, i have had an email form our new MP whostates that due to poularity, the school has manages to increase PAN to 45. That number doesn't really make sense to me. I am awaiting a reply from MPto find out her source and also when this is supposed to take effect. I presume now all offers given and accepted it would be too late to bring this into effect from this year?

I am surprised that panels cannot put a limit on how many extra a school can take at stage one (if indeed they decide more can be taken) as surely from a space point of view there must be a limit before they reach capacity limits? I am also awaiting confirmation of capacity range calculation from Dudley.

Any further advice most welcome! Many thanks

A PAN of 45 suggest they are going to move to mixed year groups with 3 classes of 30 covering 2 of the infant years. However, that may not be the case. If they are going to continue with 2 classes for each year, 45 is a strange PAN to choose.

It is definitely too late to bring the new PAN into operation formally this year. However, it is open to the appeal panel to, in effect, decide to operate as if the new PAN applied already.

As Admission says, the panel has to decide at stage 1 whether the school can admit all the children appealing. If not, they have to look at each case individually, without comparing them, and decide whether any of the individual cases are good enough to admit. If they then find they've admitted more children than they think the school can handle, they have to compare the cases for those they think should be admitted and decide which ones to actually admit. So the panel will have to consider how many extra the school can take but that doesn't necessarily mean there will be that many successful appeals. Those are the rules, I'm afraid.

Thanks PRH, you have explained that really well!

We are pretty confident about stage2, we have the best case possible i think (medical reasons, with lots of documented evidence). So what you are saying is that it mah end up with a comparison between us all, if we all have good cases. Do you know how thwy might prioritise in these circumstances?

They already have split classes in the upper years.

It rarely gets to the point where they need to prioritise. If you have a strong medical case there is a good chance you will get in. Even if they do get to the point where they need to compare appeals, medical reasons would generally put you at the head of the list. So the main thing you need to achieve is to convince the panel of the strength of your child's medical need to attend this school.

I know they've already got split years in the junior school. A PAN of 45 suggests that they intend to do that in the infants as well. Possibly the intention is to have 3 mixed nursery/reception classes and 3 mixed Y1/Y2 classes. However, although that is interesting it doesn't really impact your appeal. The important thing is that they have a new building, it will be ready in September and this building will allow them to raise PAN to 45 next year. That may convince the panel that they can go to 45 this year.

You should certainly try to persuade the panel they can admit more pupils. However, even if you don't manage that there is still a good chance you will win your appeal. It isn't an ICS appeal so strong medical grounds will generally win provided the panel is convinced that the medical evidence means your child has to go to this school.

Let's hope so! You have been so generous with your help and knowledge and i am very grateful.

Do you have any further advice about the best way to actually present the information? Do i read it out? Learn parrot fashion? Give a full blown presentation? Can i show them photographs that illustrate my son's physical difficulties (from the waist down)?

The problem is that this could get very complicated and to understand the case you would need to see all the evidence submitted.

Firstly if the new extension is for the foundation stage, which parts of the foundation stage? Foundation 2 is what is currently called reception and Foundation 1 is the nursery kids who would join the school in September 2011. There could of course be younger children also in the nursery. There are some interesting problems with having just one foundation stage because you are mixing 40 children in foundation 2 (reception) for which all the admission code is relevant and an unknown number of nursery kids (probably 26) for which only limited bits are appropriate

The net capacity calculation gives an overall figure for the capacity of the whole school (but not foundation 1!). Given the infant class size regs it makes sense to go for a net capacity which when divided by 7 (year groups) gives a figure which is a multiple of 30 or 15. So 45 for a PAN would be a sensible figure but will lead to mixed age classes. It is also the case that whilst there is a minimum size for a class room to hold 30 children, which is 52 sq metres, there is no upper limit. So even if the classroom was 75 sq metres or more it will still be assessed as having a capacity of 30 children.

There is no way the PAN of 40 will be altered now for September unless there was a major disaster and it would have to be agreed with the Schools Adjudicator. The PAN would actually have been set in early 2009 for September 2010 entrants. Most LAs would much rather let cases go to an appeal panel than try and get a change from the Schools Adjudicator. That is the point where sometimes unsubtle hints come in the schools case like "the PAN will be going up to 45 next year and the accomodation to give this increase will be complete for September 2010. I am told by the headteacher that they have already got the class management and staffing in place." Or to put it another way, we would be quite happy if you admitted to 45 but no more

If you are presenting medical evidence then you must get appropriate medical reports that say things like " in my opinion it...". If it says Mrs X tells me that.... then the panel will give these documents no weight in the decision process. It must be authorative and from a medical practioneer. Any photos which are appropriate would be good to ensure that a panel understood the issue involved.

Wow, you wen't kidding when you said it was complicated. To be totally honest, not quite sure i understand but i will re-read it a few times to see if any of it becomes clearer

Let me try and clarify a few things that might help:

The school in question is a small school (although recent Ofted called it a medium school). Infants and juniors are joined to form this Primary school. There is currently a pre-school opertating under the same name, although this is a private pre-school and is no way affiliated with the school (so i'm told). My son goes there at the moment. The pre-school is currently run off-site at a temporary location as their old premesis on site (a cabin) was taken down to make way for the new build.

The new build is essentially two classrooms plus extra toilets and storage plus a small kitchen. One of the classrooms will be purely for the nursery, and the other which is approx 78square metres will be for what i know to be Foundation. There are two classes of 20 in Foundation so i can only assume they will now be put together within this new class. There will of course be 2 qualified teachers plus support staff.

The head has made it clear he does not want extra pupils and so is in no way supporting any appeals.

There is also 2 classes of 20 in years 1 and 2. Yrs 3,4,5,and 6 get a bit more complicated as the school claims to be a 1.5 form entry not 2 form. In the later years there are some mixed classes and i am waiting for confirmation of how exactly they are split (not sure if it's relevant to my case though).

I hope i'm not missing something major here that then LEA are going to drop on me at the hearing and leave me flumaxed!!!!

As Admission says, appropriate photographs can be helpful.

It is really up to you how you present your case. The important thing is that you feel comfortable. In my own appeals I went in with a list of questions for stage 1 (but prepared to go away from that list depending on what came out). For stage 2 I would have some notes in the form of a set of bullet points that I used as reminders and I would talk around those. I would also have a short list of bullet points covering the main items from stage 1 and stage 2 for my summing up at the end.

That is my approach. You may feel more comfortable simply saying that you think your son should be admitted on the medical grounds outlined in your written appeal and then letting the panel ask you questions. Or you may feel easiest writing the whole thing out and reading it.

I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way. I think it is important that you do whatever you feel comfortable with.

The LA shouldn't drop anything major on you in the hearing. If they do, they have broken the Appeals Code by not giving you a proper chance to prepare for the appeal. This would be grounds to ask for an adjournment so that you can absorb the new evidence.

I hope that doesn't happen-an even longer wait would be unbearable!

I think it more likely that there will be two foundation (reception) year classes rather than just the one of 78 sq metres if for no other reason that there will then be a spare classroom- the one currently used by foundation class.

I would try and establish this. The LA's case should make this clear but I would check carefully. If it is two classes then the 78sq metre class room is one hell of a size classroom for 20 kids and this point needs to be made at the appeal. If however they are putting all 40 in the one room then I would be tempted to argue that they have a spare classroom and as it is not infant class size prejudice in the 78 sq metre class room up to the point of having 60 pupils there is plenty of opportunity to take extra pupils.

The headteacher is not allowed to support the introduction of pupils above 40 PAN, however I can see his well laid plans for foundation year going up in smoke because they are going to really struggle in my opinion to say the school is full.

Thanks Admission.
When i get the Authorities case (presumably early June) i will be able to clarify their specific claims. As far as i am aware, they are planning to put all of foundation into the new build together, but like i say, hopefully i will find out soon enough.

When i was taken around the school by the head (before applications) he said that when foundation relocate to the new build, the two small classrooms they currently occupy will be used by the rest of the school as they can then do extra group work and separate gifted and talented sessions for example. He also believes they are 'bursting at the seams' and that he needs those extra spaces.

I think the problem i'm going to have is the 'bottle neck' situation during years 3,4,5,6 if they admit too many over PAN in foundation.

Do you think they are going to be specific and detailed enough in their statement so that i will know what they are planning?

If they aren't the appeal panel are entitled to make their own assumptions. They have to prove that there will be prejudice as a result of admitting your child. They can't simply say there will be prejudice and expect the appeal panel to believe them.

Any alleged bottleneck in the junior school would be a fairly weak argument. That's 3 years away so plenty of time for some children to leave. In any event, the PAN is going up to 45 next year so they are going to have more in the junior school in a few years anyway.

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I can understand the logic of having two small classrooms for group work. If the PAN is going to 45 next year and they are going to have 40 pupils with 2 teachers then as a panel member I would be hard pushed not to admit to 45 solely on the room size and the two teachers being present. The bit that is the imponderable is what the panel will think about the numbers that would then start to appear in the junior classes.

It will be bought up and I think you need to work out exactly how many would be in the classes at the junior end with 45 in every year group. That then becomes the default position they have to work with those class sizes based on the 45 PAN and the expected class organisation. With a PAN of 40, that is 160 in the junior classes and with 5 classes an average of 32 in each class. With 45, that is 180 in the junior classes and with 5 classes that would be 36 in each class.

That to me is a high number and I would be loathed to admit to that level but if they really are going to 45 PAN and they do not use the two small classrooms as extra classrooms then that is the figure and you should point this out to the panel.

Calling Admission and PRH!!!!
The Admission Authority has sent their statement to me. I would really value your opinions but don't really want to tpe it all out word for word on here. Would you consider providing me with a way to contact you direct?

Many thanks

If you click on "contact poster" by this post you can contact me, although I think you have to pay £5 to use the CAT service for a year.