Appealing for an Infant place, have a sibling on role but application was late :-(

[RacheyT]

Hello,

I desperatley need some advice/help :-(

I will start from the beginning....

On the 22nd January, we realised our application hadnt been handed into school by our older son for our younger sons place for Reception in Sep 2010. I immediatley rang the Admissions Office and was told to send the application in as (and i quote) "Allocations hadn`t taken place yet". I sent the application in recorded delivery, they recieved it next day. I rang the following day to ensure it had reached the correct office, it had and I asked (to confirm) that the fact our son had a sibling, our application would be considered.

8th March came and so did the letter of refusal :-( we had been given a different primary school to the one we applied for. When i called the Admissions Office they confirmed this was due to the application being late and that with us having a sibling on role, we would get the 1st available place. We sent confirmation that we wanted to appeal and this weekend we recieved the appeal documents, in this paperwork it stated that 32 (not 30) places had been offered as the Admissions Office had made a "mistake" with the measurements.

So, not only did we not got a place but now we are being told 3 children would have to leave for us to get a place !!!

I totally understand deadlines are in place for a reason but they surely dont think we would send in our application late on purpose. My covering letter explained our circumstances for it being late and also that we have childcare set up around the school my eldest son attends (We live approx 3 miles away from his school). We now have a childminder, grandad used to collect but can`t any longer due to ill health which we also are dealing with at the moment :-(

Today I have found out that a parent is going to be declining their place as they are emigrating, so.....as 2 extra have been offered a place, the place isn`t ours and we have to wait for an additional 2 children to leave.

Our child currently attends a pre school close to the school so he would have friends in the same class, he isn`t a confident child and we believe him going to a different school to his brother and his friends will affect him greatly. Not taking into account, how do we get 2 children to 2 different schools for 9am and picked up at 3.15pm ?!?!?

I could kick myself that we didn`t apply online but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I truely thought they would take our application into account - They have quoted "the reasons for a late application may be requested and where these are not exceptional, the relevant admission criteria will be initially applied to all other recieved on time".

I know I am biased but i think a parent sending in an application (late) with a covering letter explaining they have a sibling at the school is exceptional.....I am only asking for a place that would 100% of been ours, had the form been recieved.....I am desperate :-(

30 places were available - 1 went to SN, 15 to Siblings and 16 now to Geographics (should have been 14).

Our Appeal is 10 days away......

I need your help and advice :-)

Thanks

"the reasons for a late application may be requested and where these are not exceptional, the relevant admission criteria will be initially applied to all other recieved on time". I know I am biased but i think a parent sending in an application (late) with a covering letter explaining they have a sibling at the school is exceptional.

What they are asking for here are exceptional reasons why the application was late, not expectional reasons why hey should consider the application with the on time ones IYSWIM

As it's an infant class size appeal then you basically need to show that a mistake was made by the admissions authority - from what you've said so far that doesn't appear to be the case with your application. Your only angle is to try to show that there were exceptional reasons why your application was late - ie they are looking for situations such as a parent was suddenly rushed into hospital, a death in the family etc. "We left it until the last minute and older DS forgot to hand in" isn't going to do it I'm afraid. What was the actual closing date? How many days late was it?
One other angle is to check if the admissions authority issue an application "receipt". If they don't you could go for the "I didn't realise the original application had been lost until I phoned up" angle.

It's always worth appealing though, you may get a sympathetic panel.

Sorry but the rules are rules, this happens every year at our school. It's unlikely there will be a change. As a school we handle our own admissions and there's always a reason forms are late. I've had many a parent complain about siblings not having a place, but if the class is full the class is full.At the end of the day another child has got the place and it won't be removed from them. Many children get in later though, I don't know if you live in an area with high turnover but we have spaces cropping up in every class every year. On appeal your reason for being late must be exceptional, e.g. only person with parental responsibility in hospital for the entire time the process was open. Even in this case a message to the school/ admin office from the carer could potentially hold a place. Were your curcumstances that exceptional, or did you forget. Unless you can prove you were unable to access internet/postal system I can't see there being a change plus whoever was collecting the sibling from school couldn't get a message in.

don't panic, i know being 3rd on the waiting list sounds bad, but my dd got a place after being 9th on the waiting list (we were moving to a new area). these lists move more than you would think. they have no choice but to stick to the application deadlines, if they bend the rules for one, they'd have to do it for all, which would lead to chaos. are you in catchment?, that added to sibling would increase your chances of remaining close to the top of the waiting list.

and i know you will have kicked yourself over and over about this, but i don't think leaving something as important as that in the hands of a child to hand in is a good idea.

Thanks Guys for your input/advice.

I think I am just very very mad with myself for not handing it in in person and/or applying online....iv`e recently wondered whether having a career is possible with 2 young children as something seems to have to give :-(

Does ANYBODY think we will have a case for us now being 3rd on the list due to the admissions making 2 errorsand having to give 2 extra places.....when it is time for the appeal there "would have been" an available place but due to them now increasing the class to 32, they say 3 would have to leave.. :-(

I suppose I am looking for something that might not be there :-(

Thanks for positive advice tho.....I do wonder whether other children will leave before 4th Sep.... :-) It gives me something to hold onto the fact some people were 9th and 10th and got a place :-)

Being realistic your chances of success at appeal are low. You missed the deadline. I'm afraid, as Betsy says, leaving it to the last minute and your son forgetting to hand it in won't count as an exceptional reason for being late. However, you may strike it lucky and get a sympathetic panel.

The fact that the LA has had to admit 2 more children due to a mistake won't help you at the appeal, I'm afraid.

The good news is that if you are now first on the waiting list there is quite a good chance you will get in by September, even if 3 children have to leave before a place becomes available. Many schools find that some children don't turn up at the start of the September term - their parents have moved away or made other arrangements but haven't bothered to tell the school. So it is quite possible you will get a place early in the autumn term even if you don't get one before.

Sorry I know this is not positive news for you but the LA have done the correct thing in offering two places to pupils who had been disadvantaged by their mistake.

The rules have to be applied strictly and therefore the school will have to get to 29 in the year group before there will be a place to be offered to bring it back to 30.

As others have said I don't think you will win an appeal with the arguments you have but you should appeal because you never know.

Sorry but the same thing happened to my friend.

She applied on-line, it hadn't worked; she didn't realise.

One additional child to the PAN was admitted due to LEA mistake.

Her dd is still top of the waiting list at the end of year 1, she will need 2 children to leave before her dd gets a place

Can your older child move to the younger child's school so they are both together?

Thanks everybody......Has anybody ever know a place to be retracted if offered by mistake ? ie to the 2 people who shouldn`t have got the place in the first offer round (Now I am grasping at straws :-) .....

Think I need to put my energy into figuring out how i will get 2 children to 2 schools 3 miles apart. We already have a childminder who collects the older one (year5) from School and the younger one from the pre school close to the school we wanted......not sure how this one will pan out. We cant really move the older one as its his last year next year so feel its an important year for him. One possibility is to hold the place at the 2nd school we got offered - continue with the arrangements we have now (pre school) and see if a place comes available - if not, at least the older one will be at a different school (which incidently is close to school choice 2) so we could attempt to find somebody we trust to pick up from school/be at home for the older ones return. Wow.....this really is hard work :-( but happy to say worth it

no they are not allowed to withdraw offers to the two children who wouldn't have made the first "cut" had the mistakes not been made - if it happened, that is a breech of the Admissions code & would itself be grounds for appeal, and the appeals panel should reinstate their places.

sorry...

Rachey,
the honest answer is yes I have known cases where the places have been retracted because the LA made a mistake. However as Betsyboop says this is wrong and is the LA trying in on. They are wrong to do this and deserve to be slaughtered at an appeal if they do this. The LA in your situation has operated correctly and good for them. It is just unfortunate that it ends up making yoiur situation worse.

I would agree with you, you need to concentrate on the curent situation and how you might work around this. Don't give up on getting a place at the school because many schools do have a sizable turnover in admission places but you do need plan B based on taking the offered place.

As Betsy says, there are very few grounds on which an offer can be withdrawn once it has been made. Some LAs have been known to try to retract offers but the parents can always get the retraction overturned if they appeal. Just about the only circumstance in which the LA can withdraw an offer is if they find that the application was fraudulent, e.g. the parent gave a false address. So yes, there is a lot of straw clutching going on there!

There is still a reasonable chance that your son will get a place through the waiting list. It is still only May so there is plenty of time for children to drop out. And you never know what will happen at the appeal. You may get a sympathetic panel. It may be that information will emerge during the hearing which allows them to admit your son. You may be able to persuade the panel that the conversations you had with the Admissions Office gave you a reasonable expectation that your application would be treated as if it was on time and that it should, therefore, have been handled that way. However, working out your backup plan is a sensible move.

Is it worth making the point at appeal that as they have 32 in the class the school must have some measures in place to deal with there being more than 30 chn (eg extra teacher etc) so one more ie OP's DC would be OK?

Or is that just irrelevant? (no knowledge of appelas really).

I hope your older boy isn't blaming himself for the muddle, or being blamed.
Good luck with it, ours is a school with a very high turnover, but there are strict rules about the size of KS1 and reception classes. We had a late application for a sibling of a child in my class, the family were on holiday and missed the date by three days. He's now 7th on the waiting list and the mother is furious.

Clary - I'm afraid that is irrelevant. Because they were admitted as a result of the LA making a mistake, the 2 extra children count as "excepted pupils" which means they don't actually count. The school will still be complying with infant class size regulations even if they don't put any measures in place.

They are only excepted for 1 year. If the class is still over 30 in Y1 the school will need to do something about it. But not for Reception.

Under the rules, this will still be an infant class size case.

Oh that makes sense pr47. You and admission need to set up some kind of fee-paying consultation service at this time of year

Why would someone who applied for a place properly deserve to lose out (have the place retracted) because you entrusted the application to a child instead of looking after it yourself (or your DH / DP if you have one)?

No-one is going to lose out. That isn't the way appeals work. If the OP wins her appeal, her son will be admitted in addition to the children already admitted.

Racheyt - I'm not an expert on appeals but don't see much sucess in the circs you've described.
You've said that the schools are 3 miles apart but how long does it take to drive between them ? Can you drop one at the earliest possible time and make it in time for the other to arrive at the latest possible time ? Or would the younger child's school allow some flexibilty at the start of the day ?
It is dificult being a working parent but I guess, like others, I'm surprised you didn't take the application in. Doesn't help you now but I hope you get the outcome you want

Thanks all for your input, negative and positive - I so wish Id have taken the application in myself that day and/or applied online. I walked my eldest to school that day and he had a number of things to give in but didnt go to the Secretary that day and instead gave lunch money in seperatley etc; anyway......whats done is done and I cant change that - No, my eldest isnt to blame at all and we havent even told him or he would feel bad as he`s a sensitive sole :-(

Just had the phone call from school to confirm a place was declined but due to 2 being admitted due to an error with the admission, we still need a further 2 to decline their place.......we have no choice but to say at the appeal that this place would have been ours, had they not made a mistake. YES, we made a mistake and have paid for months of misery of not knowing what we would do but it isnt exactly fair that they make a mistake so 2 extra places get given but our application was just dismissed. Even though when i called i was told "send it in as we havent allocated places yet" - I truly thought they would consider our application and give it the weight it merited......in the admissions code 2010 it goes on and on about families being at the heart of the admissions system but clearly think it is ok to dismiss an application where there is a sibling on role ?!?!?! I am not fighting for a place that should never have been mine - i just want them to realise that their decision NOT to include out application was NOT reasonable - maybe I am biased as it is for my cause - I know rules are there for a reason, had we realised once offers had been sent out that we hadnt sent our application then id agree and hope for the best with regards to people declining - our situation has been made worse due to them making the errors with the 2 places and now we are in a position where we have to wait for more to decline.....It is just so frustrating, YES the application was late but not too late to be included. BUT, due to their error, we still don`t get the place which has now become available !!!

I have been advised to ask whether more than 1 person assessed our application and declines us a place - does anybody know if this is something which would help us ?

confused and angry and sad

The answer to your query is that it is completely irrelevant whether one or two people assessed your application. It is the LA that are deemed to have decided not a person.

Your best bet is to go to appeal and say that you were told "send it in as we haven't allocated places yet." That was an indication that your reason for being late had been accepted as genuine and you believed that it would be included as an on-time application.

It is a weak case, it is by no means the exceptional case that you thought in your original post but i can't see any alternative that would have any chance of success.

I agree. Your best case is to argue that the LA gave you a reasonable expectation that, although you missed the deadline, they would deal with your application as if it was on time. However, as this was a telephone conversation, in the absence of recordings of the calls it comes down to your word against the LA. It is, as Admission says, a weak case but you may strike it lucky.

I have to ask, Rachey, you seem to be talking a lot about the one particular day that your DS took in the application. Did you leave this until the last day? Surely you had a good few weeks to get it in?

So saying you had no choice but to send it with your son is one thing but surely you sent it in with a few weeks to go? Then checked his bag to ensure it had been handed in? If unsure you check with the school or you call them at 9.30 to say he has it in his bag and could they just take it out.

You are making it sound as though you had a one day window and you did all you could but the form still didn't get there. In reality you took a very lazy approach to things and are now feeling hard done by. I'm amazed that if things are so tight logistically with childcare etc, you didn't give this a little more thought.

Thanks "Admission and "prh47bridge" for your true/positive advice. "myredquattro", maybe don`t apply for the Samaritans any time soon!! I had actually posted my predicament for advice and help - I can be told what "advice" you gave me should I chose to call the Admissions Office and argue my case (Which I would never do !)

I havent</strong> said we had no choice but to send it with my older son, its stupidly what we decided to do on the day - in hindsight (which is how you give advice) it would have been much better to apply online.(Altho i have also had replies from people who are appealing as this didn`t work either!).

I will put my case forward as "Admission" and "prh47bridge" suggest and hope they are sympathetic to our case.

Thanks for everybody`s advice, it has been a help as I think i need to put things into perspective and also think about Plan B should we not be successful.

Thanks
RacheyT