Best way of presenting an appeal from those with experience?

[Kimmy1979]

Hi, this is my 3rd (and final i promise) thread. All about my appeal but all three threads deal with different issues.

This one is specifically related to the appeal hearing itself. I would like to know if anyone has experience of either sitting on panel or even having gone through an appeal?

What is the best way to present information? What should i avoid doing?
What annoys panels the most?
What's the most effective style?

All advice v gratefully recieved xkx

Hi Kimmy, been reading your other posts but have been unable to answer straight away
(we lost our appeal today and I reacted with major tears....) Have now moved on to anger but I'm not the best person to comment rationally today, will happily share our experience with you fwiw in a day or too.

Kimmy,
I chair panels. I would say to you that the first thing to remember is to remain calm. In part 1 you have the opportunity to ask questions relating to what the admission authority have said. This is the time to bring up any issue you might have about things being wrong etc.

In part 2 you are telling the panel why you want your child to go to this school, which you will already have done on the written submission. Normally most people bring in some notes with them and use these to make sure that they say everything. Be prepared for the panel to ask you questions about your reasons and about your child.

The panel has to operate within set legal conditions, so they cannot for instance take any consideration of the fact you believe that the school offered is rubbish - so it is a waste of time mentioning it. Also photos are not allowed and bringing in their dance certificates or other such outside interests is really not of any use.

What annoys panels? Well lawyers being bought in to present a case tends not to be well received. Usually they are not very good and keep badgering the panel, which does not go down well! I have seen a parent present a lot better case than a lawyer on a number of occaisions.

I don't think anything particularly annoys a panel, they are all human and usually fully understand that this is a traumatic and difficult time for the appealants. Having said that bringing in young children and babies is usually a major distraction and best avoided.

Most effective style is to be yourself. Last week I did an appeal when at stage 1 this lady was really aggresive and pushy about things. Turned out she was a lawyer and in full lawyer mode. When she came in for stage 2 she was not a lawyer, she was a mum and she then came across as a genuine human being who gave good reasons why her daughter should be given a place.

Thanks Admission, some useful points. Gheng, so sorry, look forward to hearing from you soon. It must be so hard, i have a horrible feeling i will be in the same position as you soon enough.

I have just joined Mumsnet and I have just read all the above... my heart goes out to you all. This is my story..
I am so worried I dont know what to do...
My eldest girl will be in year 2 in September and my boy will be in year 1 in September, my youngest is in the school nursery at the moment she started in January and I have just been told she did not get into Reception!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have a meeting on Monday with the head and apparently she is 6th on the waiting list. She is only on the list because of her siblings!!!! I know of 2 children that live further away from me with no siblings in the school that got a place and I am deverstated!!! The school is C of E and at the time of applying had left my church and was looking for another place of worship but if I had put that on the form I would look like I was lying!!!! So I left it blank!!!! I went to the Priest of my last place of worship and he is writing me a letter for me to give the head on Monday to try and help because we are now back at our church...... I have just joined Mumsnet and would really like any advise I am so worried what I am going to say to my baby why she can't go to school in September... Please Help

Hi MumsVoice. Sorry, i have no experience with faith school situations. I am going through the same sort of thing though and so sympathise! There are some really helpful and knowledgable people on here so i'm sure someone will be able to give you some advice soon. Might i suggest starting a new thread giving lots of detail about your case? This thread will only attract those who can give advice about actually presenting an appeal at the panel hearing. Good luck

I am a panel mamber and have years of experience. I'd second everything admission said. Just be yourself, and be prepared with notes and pointers of anything you wnat ot bring up.

Panel members are human (believe it or not!).
The most successful appeals I have been in on are those where the mum (and dad, if he is around) is prepared, calm, but not overconfident, not aggressive (definite no-no!!!!) It is not bad to show your emotions. I have never turned down an appeal just because the mum has ended up a blithering wreck. DOnt worry if you do get emotional, it happens. You will not be the only one.

Good luck.

Thanks PositiveAttitude, very helpful. I want to make sure i do everything right!

Kimmy,
If you are well prepared panel Chair, you always have a large box of tissues with you! Parents do get very emotional over which school is best for their child for good reason and panels do expect some emotion, but prefer not to much emotion!

Kimmy - Another panel member and chair here. I'd also second everything Admission and Positive Attitude have said.

Talking generally, the main no-no (in my view) is telling the panel that your child is such a prodigy that only the best school in the borough is good enough. I don't agree with other posters who say that this will turn the panel against you but it will bore them because they have heard it so many times before and because it isn't relevant to the appeal. Another no-no is going overboard on the child needing to go to the same school as their pre-school friends - most children make new friends very quickly and easily and if they have psychological problems which mean they can't, the panel would expect to see confirmation by a health professional.

One thing to avoid (if you can) is flinging some crucial document onto the panel's desk just as you start your presentation. They won't have time to read it properly and you probably don't want the delay of an adjournment.

Try to relax, remember that the panel are human (possibly even MNers ) and do the best you can for your child.

MumsVoice - I am puzzled by your post. Everything depends on the oversubscription criteria for the school. I am assuming that the criteria go something like - looked after children, social and medical need, siblings, church affiliation, others ranked by distance. If you weren't attending church and had no letter of support from your vicar, then you would have been considered (I'm assuming again) under the sibling category. Presumably the children who live further away who were allocated places were in a higher priority category. Does your school distinguish between foundation places (linked to church attendance) and open places (not linked)?

I am not sure what a letter from your former priest will achieve. Again, a lot depends on the precise wording of the admissions criterion, but our school requires evidence that the family are churchgoers and have been attending regularly for two years. If you had left your church, then (unless it was a very short break) then I think the problem isn't that you left that part of the form blank, it's that you weren't a churchgoer at the time of application.

How big is the school? Being 6th on the waiting list may give you a good chance of a place before September, if the school is a large one. If you intend to appeal and this is an infant class size appeal (see all the other threads about this) you will need to show that there has been some error or irregularity which has deprived your child of a place.

Sorry for the puzzled statement as I am so upset about the whole thing!!!
I have just found out that the school has had a portacabin placed in the school grounds for an extra year 2 class which I never knew about!!! The extra class size is about 22 and the portacabin has two class rooms in it... I have been searching for loads of records whch I cannot find...
I have 2 friends that have got thier children into the school who again have no siblings or religion and live much further away than I do... the school says 30 in the class but the reception class at the moment has 32!!! I have a meeting with the head on Monday so I may find more out! Thanks for the info but still feel lost and very sorry for my child

Thanks for advice Panelmember and Admission. Just wondered what we should wear ??!! (lol!)
We want to give off the right impression.

Mumsvoice- i know what you mean about it being hard to find out information about the school. Good luck meeting with the Head. Ours was useless and said he felt sorry for us but would not give us the info we wanted as he didn't want to help our appeal as he didn't want anyone to win! Nice guy! Good luck

MumsVoice - Come and tell us more (about the extra classroom and about the school's oversubscription criteria) when you've had the meeting with the Head.

Kimmy - Please believe me. The panel won't care what you wear! If you present your case well, the panel will be too engrossed in what you are saying to pay any attention to your clothes. Just aim to look clean, tidy and presentable.

I have a question, sorry to hijack.

We are going to our Appeal hearing next week. Our third child did not get a place at the same school as his two siblings.

This is purely because of the school being oversubscribed, and reception being full.

I realise we are going to lose the appeal, as there is nothing the panel can do regarding class size, so it does rather feel like a waste of time.

However, we are going ahead and presenting our case, because we feel so strongly that we have to atleast try everything.

This is the first year that any of the schools in the area have been over subscribed, due to a change in the system from three tier to two tier.

Our main point of arguement, other than we obviously want all three children to attend the same school, is that our eldest child has Aspergers, and in order to have all three in the same school, we would have to move the other two to the school that our youngest got a place at. Obviously, for our son with Aspergers, who is in year four now, it would not be good to move him to a different school away from his friends.

I know, we are clutching at straws. It won't make any difference will it?

Celery - Who knows? For an infant class size appeal, you essentially have to demonstrate that there has been a grave error which has deprived your child of a place or the admission process was so flawed as to be irrational. But, as is often pointed out, sometimes panels do allow appeals where strictly speaking (according to the various codes) they ought to refuse. So you have to give it your best shot.

The points you could cover are

How feasible will it be to have children at two schools? The panel will understand that it isn't ideal but could you manage? If not, explain why.

Does the school you've been allocated for your youngest have spaces for the other two? If not, your argument for a place at your preferred school becomes stronger.

I imagine that your eldest child would cope less well with a change of school than an NT child. Is that right? If so, can you provide evidence from a health care professional (paediatrician, say)?

As you know, it's hard to win an infant class size appeal, but if you can show that the decision is one that no rational authority would have made, you have a chance.

Celery,
I would say look carefully at the admission criteria and see where sibling comes on the list. Different admission authorities give different levels of priority to siblings. Check to make sure that you actually have been placed in the right admission category.

You could try quoting paragraph 2.25 of the admission code at them, which says that admission authorities should ensure in their oversubscription criteria that siblings can attend the same primary school as long as they comply with the infant size class regs. Given that this is the first year of the arrangements for two tier from three tier you could argue that the admission authority have not ensured this will happen. It is a "should" so it is not mandatory and is unlikely to be something that will get you a place but a useful tool in showing that there are local issues that need resolving.

The question of whether, in moving from a 3 to a 2 tier system, the LEA planned adequately for siblings (or any other aspects of the transition) is certainly worth exploring. That might (although it's still a bit of a push, I think) provide grounds for arguing that the admission process was so flawed as to be irrational.

Thank you so much for your input. Am off to bed now, but will digest everything you've said properly tommorrow.

Sorry to hijack this thread but would be grateful for some advice regarding a friend.She moved to the area just before the birth of her dd knowing that there was a local school serving the area. It's not traditionally been oversubscribed so children from other areas travel to the school. In the last couple of years it's become hideously oversubscribed, to the extent that local children cannot now attend, because of all the siblings of children from other areas, unless like us they luckily live less than 0.2 miles away.There is another school nearer to her house with a poorer OFSTED report, but because she didn't list it as a choice, there is no place there either. She would therefore have to travel to go to one of a small selection of pretty poor schools.
She has appealed, but from what I can tell she has no grounds to appeal apart from the personal effect on the family. they are devastated and will have to move house to a new area for a school.
Is there any chance they could win their appeal based on the above? Is there anything they could focus on to support their case.
Thanks in anticipation.

Puffling,
Nothing you have said in your post would appear to be good grounds for an appeal to be successful.
I would suggest that they make sure that they are on the waiting list for both of the local schools. I also have to say that there is absolutely no guarantee of a place at any school if they move into an area, so before thye make the financial commitment to move house I would be very sure of the situation regarding school places given that is the main reason for moving.

Thanks admission. They have actually obtained school places in several areas that they'd consider moving to. Looks like they'll have to move. DD will lose her close friend.