A waiting list/distance question...

[brownmia]

Hi - we are living in a very oversubscribed part of London, we got our 3rd choice which we are grateful for but obv dissapointed not to get our first choice as we live so near. Anyway found out today we have slipped from no. 2 to no. 5 on the waiting list for our 1st choice school - am a bit gutted as it feels like it's getting more and more unlikely that we will get in.

As the catchment was only .22 of a mile and we were no. 2 at .23 I find it remarkable that 3 families have moved in closer to us in the last month or so (although it's probably not THAT remarkable...)

Anyway if I were to request from the council a map or a list of the postcodes ahead of us on the list is this something they would have to provide or would they just tell me to go away...?
Thanks

They may have been allocated a school not of their preference and been put onthe list just as you have since allocations were made. You can check how the LA measure the distance criteria (direct door to door, nearest pedestrian route etc) but unlikely they will tell you where those ahead of you live and even postcodes may not indicate that, since the same one can apply to a number of houses in the same road.

It might not just be people moving in the last month. It could be

a) a family getting a place in another year & the other child moving up the list, as now in "sibling" category
b) a child who has submitted further evidence to put them in the medical/social needs category
c) People who applied late (either because they "forgot" or moved in months ago, but after closing date) as probable that late apps have now been processed.
d)People who didn't get any of their choices asking to go on many waiting lists

...and probably other reasons I haven't thought of.

Hopefully once all the "late" apps are in the mix & people have got on all the waiting lists they want, things should settle down a bit more.

How many are admitted each year, how "mobile" is the local population & how many are likely to go private but keeping a state place "just in case"?

Obviously 5th is quite good if a PAN of 90, mobile population & a relatively high take-up of private ed, 5th is not so good if PAN=30, stable population & low take-up of private ed.

Thanks BB and Lizs - makes perfect sense that there are lots of various reasons why we have been overtaken on the list. Hadn't really thought that through! I guess I'm just feeling a bit narky that we have been demoted...I shall wait and see, the guy I spoke to today said to call every few weeks so I assume that means there will be further movement.

It's a 2 form entry and a stable population - am just hoping there will be a few private ed types in there hedging their bets...

thanks v much for your replies. I won't bother the busy admissions people further.

Hi

Same thing has happened to us. Ds has been offered our 2nd choice school but found out from LEA he was 3rd on waiting list for our 1st choice school. Since end of March he has gone from 3rd to 5th to 6th and back down to 5th again!! I was told this was due to late applications and people moving in to the area and being closer than us!

My fingers (and toes) are crossed!

I would guess that the most likely reason for you moving down the admission criteria order is that there have been 3 late applications that either live nearer the school than you or who have siblings at the school.

Whilst you think you are being "nice" by not bothering the admissions office, I would say to you that in such a dynamic environment you should try and speak to them at least every two weeks, just to check where you are on the waiting list.

Have you thought of appealing? It will obviously be an infant class size appeal with a PAN of 60, so you are really looking for whether any mistakes were made. The most obvious one is the distance measurement, given that you were only 0.01 of a mile from getting a place. 0.01 of a mile is 17.6 yards (53 feet). How was the distance measured, straight line distance or walking route or what? If it is a straight line distance then it is most probably right, anything else and it might be worth appealing just to see how the admission authority worked out the distance. Also ask and listen to others and see who might or might not have got a place at the school. Do they seem further away then you and not have a sibling? Again another indication that they just might have made a mistake. It does not happen often but it is better to check than stay in ignorance.

Can I just say even if straight line distance people may still get a place at school even if further away than you. I am 700 metres from my first choice school and did not get a place. Yet people from 1000 metres did get a place this is without them having siblings SEN etc. Not a faith school either.

Madmum - It depends on the admission criteria. Some LAs use a lottery rather than distance, although this is now relatively uncommon. Some do something more complex than simple distance which involves measuring the distance to the nearest school with places as well and then... don't ask. My LA used to do this until recently and it caused all kinds of confusion when a child could get admitted to a school because they lived furthest away!

You also need to check how distance is measured. Many LAs use the straight line distance, so someone may still have a longer walking route than you but still be closer to the school.

If none of that explains what has happened it may mean that your LA has made a mistake in which case you should appeal.

Brownmia - I agree with Admission. With a difference of only 17.6 yards it doesn't need much of a mistake for them to have got the measurement wrong. Even with straight line distance, if they measured from the wrong point on your property they could get the wrong answer. I would ask the LA to confirm exactly where on your property they set the datum point and, if it isn't straight line distance, what route they used. If there is any possibility that they may have got it wrong, I would appeal.

I believe my LEA use the centre of your house as the datum point. How do you find out the datum point of house is there a offical point in the house?

Thanks

Madmum - The admission criteria will tell you what point they should measure from on your property. If that is the centre point of your house, that is where they should have set the datum point. If the admission criteria don't specify which point on your property is used it opens the situation up to debate but the LA is probably still ok provided they have been consistent and measured from the same point on every property.

Having said that, if there is really a difference of 300m the position of the datum point on your property is not particularly significant unless you live in a palace!

In your position I would check the admission criteria to find out how they measure distance. I would also ask the LA to confirm the distance they used for you and the cut off distance. If distance is measured by the shortest walking route or similar, I would also ask the LA to confirm the route they used. They have to answer these questions even if it reveals they have made a mistake.

If the figures indicate that they got the distance to your house wrong and you are actually inside the cut off, that is grounds for an appeal.

However, it is possible that the child living further away got in on other grounds despite being outside the cut off point. It doesn't have to be SEN or siblings. There could be a medical reason or special social reasons that resulted in them getting priority which you wouldn't necessarily know about.

Thanks admission and prh47 - you both seem to be the experts on this!

And I will def be calling every few weeks (even if I have to sit on the redial button for days on end as per the past few weeks...)

Our LEA use a straight line distance and the criteria is looked after/priority zone/siblings then distance (of which there were about 20 admitted on this basis).

To be precise we are 0.013 miles over the maximum distance - which is 20 meters/69 feet - which could make a difference re this datum point business (which I am not at all familiar with but I assume they would use the same for each application i.e middle of road frontage or centre of property).

Last year there were 8 appeals all unsuccessful which makes me think they must be measuring accurately?

Worth persuing you think?

Oh - and good luck MonaLisa!

They should be measuring from the same point on every property. The admission criteria should say what that point is but some LAs don't include this. Middle of the property is fairly common but some LAs use the front door. I would check the admission criteria and, if it doesn't say, ask the LA a direct question.

It is quite hard to appeal against a straight line measurement. However, if you appeal the LA should include a map in the papers provided to the appeal panel which will confirm exactly where they have placed your property. It is always possible they've measured from a house over the street instead of your house, for example. That would be a more obvious error than measuring from the wrong point on your property.

Unless they have made a mistake with the measurement your chances of success at appeal are low. However, if you feel up to it I would go for it anyway. At worst you are in exactly the same position you are at the moment. At best something will come out in the appeal which will persuade the panel to admit.

We have similar position but don't live quite so close. We didn't get any of our choices for secondary school, even with a school we would have got into the last two years. We were up to 3rd until yesterday when I called and was told 2 people had moved into the area closer than us and we had dropped to 5th.

One thing the school advised is that they would usually expect a lot of movement this about this time of the year, but unfortunately, it is very quiet in comparision with 2008 and 2009. In our area this is mainly due to those who would normally go private, going community.

Appeals are v. difficult, just lost 2 (you can appeal for as many schools on your original list as you like as long as they are above the choice you have been given) -
told only stood a chance if we had good medical reason and documentation to back that up or our DD was statemented.

Good luck.
Sue41

You can appeal for any school you want, including those below the choice you were given and schools you didn't even put on your original list.

We are in a similar situation. We missed out on our nearest (first choice) school by 0.0176 miles. But when I rang to find out where we are on the waiting list it was number 13.

The class intake is only 60 and the school is v.good so they say there is hardly any movement on the list. The catchment is only 0.25miles. I can't quite believe we live 30meters outside the catchment and 12 other kids are above us???? Is there any way of finding out if it's siblings moving into the area (haven't seen that many for sale signs around) or late applicants or what?

I am afraid a block of flats can cause this sort of situation.

foodfairy - I suggest you ask the LA. It does seem odd that you missed out by so little and yet there are so many people ahead of you. However, there may be a good explanation. The LA should be able to tell you how this has happened.

No blocks of flats - just lots of fairly large houses (maybe a couple split into flats) and really quite a lot of green space.

Will try the LA, doesn't change anything as presumably they moved closer to the school/applied late in the last couple of months, but it is really strange. Makes me think that all the talk of people renting for a couple of months to get into schools isn't exagarated after all. . . . grrrrrr.

Definately know that has happened in our area, my neighbour told me of a case of a family that just rented a bedsit in the area to get their D into our local school!!

Amazing what people will do.....