Faith School Farce .... what are chances of appeal?

[MrsOB]

Hi all

My son has just been turned down for all 3 of our preferences for infant school. The first 2 preferences were for faith schools. We are committed Catholics and attend mass every week with our son.

In the 2 catholic schools we applied for there was a supplementary form which needed to be completed. This is where the priest confirms your family's attendance at church. We submitted this form.

I was recently speaking to a mum at my DS's nursery who told me that, whilst her son is baptised catholic, she never attends mass, nor does the son. Her way around the supplementary form was to get her mother to give it to the priest on the way out of mass - he signed it and hey presto, she has a valid form.

I found out yesterday that her son got a place and I am thinking I should appeal. If this is the method of getting this form signed then surely it is not right? Her son manages to get a place whilst we are told we don't have a place (they live closer to the school than we do). In my opinion this is fraud. How can it be right her son gets a place when they never attend mass but my son doesn't when we attend every week?

My son is currently second on the waiting list for this school. Would you appeal? Has anyone had this experience?

Any advice appreciated.

B x

Goodness me. shocked. don't know what to advise. many MN'ers are very experienced on the appeals process, where i am not. did the school confirm that they had your priest form. presumably this puts you quite high on criteria list. after siblings etc.
what did school say ?

Thanks Oblomov,

Phew, I'm glad it's not just me who thinks it is wrong ... to be honest, when she first told me I thought it was disgusting, but when I found out her son had a place and mine doesn't, well .... I was not happy!

The school confirmed they had my form. I haven't mentioned it to the school yet - the appeal has to go through them rather than the LA.

I will give them a call and see what the appeals process is. Just wanted to sound out people on here about it beforehand.

Thanks,
B x

I can not comprehend their criteria. Is it very over subscribed. Don't bring other mum into it. You are right/just, but it appesr bitchy.
I am not catholic, but originally pentecostal. dh's family are big catholics. we only go once a month. but priest signed our form. but then in our year, the intake included a couple of non catholics, i.e lower down criteria, so I don't feel bad.
You can't stamp your feet and say 'my faith is stronger than hers'. you are justified in feeling that. but it isn't a valid argument.
fact is both of you sublitted forms. you are in the same criteria group, one assumes. why she was chosen over you is a mystery. does she live closer .
could you ring the nice secretary in the school and sob and find out .
actually don't do thta. I don't know what to advise.

The sad fact is that this is not unusual. It is totally up to the priest to make sure that they sign those forms where it is appropriate and not sign others. This priest clearly does not undestand the significance of the signature or does not care.

The other mother has complied with the admission arrangements and as such you cannot do anything about it. Though I would say it is morally and spiritually unacceptable.

I would definitely appeal, based on you wanting a catholic education.

If you are on good terms with the priest then sometimes a private conversation, saying how devastated you are at not getting a place with the priest some how materialises a school place. If nothing else it might end up with them putting in a good word for you!

Whilst the appeal is initially to go to the school governors the probability is that the appeal will actually be arranged via the Local Authority. The format is exactly the same as for any admission appeal. (see other posts)

The other mum does live closer to the school than we do .... and I know it seems like I'm stamping my feet and having a bit of a tantrum (learnt from my DS!) I just think it is wrong and unfair.

Whilst it seems that our faith is stronger, that's not what I'm saying .... what I am saying is that the priest signed the form without even ensuring that the family go to church every other week. Why put in this criteria if you are not going to stick to it.

We worship at a different church to the one aligned with the school (there are 2 in our area) so my priest isn't the same one as the priest who signed their form (phew, that is confusing!).

I rang the school and I have to call to speak to the headteacher tomorrow. Eeek!

Well....
The upshot of this is that the parents of the child with a place, will find they will have to attend mass quite regularly from now on, and come to various assemblies, and festivals at the school, AND the Church, as otherwise their child will be a friendless outcast whom the other parents will not want to make playdates with.

It is a pity for you, but I dont know what you can do.

Yes, she has commited fraud, she has lied and cheated.

But you may still get a place for your child, but lets hope you wont have to rat on her to get it. You could just mention "It has been brought to my attention that some of the parents got others to take the form to the priest to sign, because they dont attend mass themselves", but not tell them who...

On the other hand, you might not know the situation fully.

Take us for example. My son got a place in an oversubscribed RC primary, and we dont attend mass regularly. Our son is baptised Catholic, dh was brought up Catholic.

I was the editor of the parish newsletter for our local Church of England Church, so doing voluntary work for the church, I was attending.

To others at my son school, it seemed outrageous. They had friends from church whose children did not get a place, and they see ME, a total stranger turn up with a child on the first day of school.

BUT, our family has deep ties with our local Carmelite convent, Father at our local Catholic parish church wrote us a glowing reference, AND I had a reference from my CofE vicar.

There might be circumstances you dont know, in this familys situation.

Quintessentialshadow,
This woman has not committed fraud, lied or cheated. She asked her mother to ask the priest to sign the form and like a fool he did. It is the priest who is at fault here, if anybody.

And they do not have to do anything in the future, they have a place at the school and nobody can take it away from them. They do not have to attend church once!

well admission, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

if there are 30 places in the school and 30 catholics who live closer to the school than you have applied (whether you go to church more often than them or not) you have no grounds for appeal really

my ds just got into a local popular catholic school and we are not religious at all, although we do live nearby, just luck that there were less than 30 catholics applied in this case and ds got the next available place!

I think from what i have read you have applied to a catholic a school that is outside the parish which you live in? How far are the schools from you? If she has a signed form and lives closer then she will get in before you. She has not lied or comitted fraud, she worked the flaws in the system.

My ds goes to a massively over subscribed catholic school that is one of the top 5 non fee paying schools in bucks. It only takes 30 children per year group and has about 80 applicants per year. They way it is done in our parish is you have a diary from the year before your dc is due to apply to the school. The diary is signed by the priest each Sunday and at the end of the year if you have been to mass 80% of the year you will get a reference from the priest to go with your school ap. Without this ref you will no way get a place. It is then done on how far you live from the school. It is fair. You could appeal but no guaruntees. Good luck

My limited review of faith school entrance criteria seems to bring up the potential for a priest anywhere to sign a form saying the parents and child regularly attend at the required version of church. Thus, someone living miles away but practising could get their priest to sign the form and hey presto, they are in the school where they are moving to.

Quite simply, if I needed a form signed, I'd get some priest from somewhere to sign it, maybe when he was in the pub. I would "cheat".

However, if these parents and child have not moved and do not practise and if that was a requirement, then I would not want to be the church or even the school if I had to defend a legal action because it would be incredibly easy to prove that these people had committed a fraud. And it is fraud, pure and simple.

It is likely that the form requires the people completing it to be honest. It presumably becomes a legal document just as much as the application which lists your address and if you were to list a false address then your application would be void. I see no difference on the grounds of fraudulently pretending to qualify under another school admission criterion.

I would talk to the school and if my child was going to be deprived, then I would look at the easiest way to get my child into the school and if that was to threaten legal action against the school or church or both then so be it. My guess is that they will capitulate.

i think it depends on the wording of the form. if it is just a reference from the priest then there is no fraud or dishonesty on anyone's part even if it is disappointing that the priest will give it on so little evidence.

it's only if the priest has signed to eg confirm specific attendance that you might have any sort of case. Based on the OP's wording - a priest might well view a grandparent as family for the purpose of establishing family attendance.

I suggest you check that out before threatening any sort of legal action.

How oversubsribed was the schools? Did she have another child already there? Our town has two Catholic schools and had about 100 applications for the Catholic catagory (i.e signed by Priest form) but I have never seen more than 10 young kids at mass We thankfully got 2nd choice and only because we live so close. There was around 40 Catholic children who didn't get either. Definatly appeal, don't mention the other lady though but say how important a Catholic education is for your child. Even if the school you got isn't faith (i.e 'normal' state) it is still C of E as the state is C of E. I would have been refusing any other school on those grounds.

How can you prove these people haven't been to mass though? It's actually the child in our parish that is required to go, that could be with aunt/uncle/grandparent. My guess is you live outside of catchment for the school and with or without reference, like op said if 30 children live closer than you and all have references then they will get a place before you. You can't question the reference for 30 children. Also siblings with reference in catchment with reference will also get preference. I agree you need to appeal based on you want catholic Ed for your child, and in no way use anything you have heard from this other mother in that. She has a signed form maybe because her mother attends mass and this can be classed as 'family'. I'm afraid sometimes with catholic schools it's who you know, look at quintessentialshadows post about her dc. Good luck and keep us updated

Hi all,

Well, I had a meeting with the school today and they basically said that they had followed their procedure so I didn't really have grounds for appeal.

I said my main gripe was the form filling process as I wasn't sure that it was very robust in terms of checking people's attendance at Mass.

They probed a bit further and I ended up just saying that I knew somebody had given the form to someone else to sign. I didn't say that their child had got a place.

They said that wasn't really on and they would look at the process for next year.

We are still on the waiting list, I just need to cross my fingers (and pray!!) that we end up getting a place.

Mrs OB,
With the best will in the world, what the school say about following their procedure and whether that actually is the correct procedure could be a million miles apart. Believe me I have seen it plenty of times at appeal that faith schools tend to be somewhat "maverick" when it comes to process.

I would appeal based on you wanting a catholic education for your son and ask the priest if they will support your appeal in writing. At the appeal in part 1 you can ask questions about the process and question whether the forms were all completed correctly. The school's comments about looking at the process for next year are either hollow promises given that the 2011 admission criteria have already been agreed or they know that there have been mistakes made, in which case that is an absolute reason to appeal. It is still probably a long shot but you never know in these situations.

"
If you are on good terms with the priest then sometimes a private conversation, saying how devastated you are at not getting a place with the priest some how materialises a school place. If nothing else it might end up with them putting in a good word for you!"

And this is part of the admissions process for a state school that my taxes pay for?

Are you people not ashamed of yourselves?

Seeker,

I'm not quite sure what your point is and why I should be ashamed of myself....

Yes, faith schools are paid for by yours and MY taxes, and as such have additional elements to the admissions process which are supposed to weed out those who are just trying to get into a better school.

I'm just questioning how right it is that somebody who knows the priest has never met them before in his life gets a relative to sign a form on their behalf? To me that just doesn't seem right - but if I should be ashamed of myself for feeling a bit resentful that their child got into that school and mine didn't then I consider myself sent to the corner with my head bowed.

Are you honestly saying that if you found out your child had been deprived of a place at the school of your choice because of another parents deceit then you would just take it on the chin

What should we be ashamed of exactly? Wanting a better education for our children? Pulling all the stops out to get one?

Why don't you think of it as your taxes pay for your childrens education process and ours pay for all children? Will that help you sleep better at night? Or knock the chip off your shoulder?

I agree with seeker. The system is nuts. (Not to mention divisive, unfair etc, etc).

I agree entirely the system has flaws in some parts of the country but we dont make the rules, as parents we have to follow them in order for our children to get into the best school they can. So why the hell should we be ashamed!!!

"If you are on good terms with the priest then sometimes a private conversation, saying how devastated you are at not getting a place with the priest some how materialises a school place. If nothing else it might end up with them putting in a good word for you!"

It was this suggestion of who-you-know-not-what-you-know, nod and wink, getting in by the back door that outraged me. I do not believe in faith schools, but I accept that they exist. However, admissions must be above board and transparent.

If we are talking of deceit then add in all those parents who don't actually believe but are just willing to jump through the hoops. I wonder what sort of percentage they make up? At our local school I would say the majority so I can't really get irate over those that are smart/cheeky enough to cicumvent the some hoops.

Had to LOL a little at this

I am just leaving to go pick my mum up then we are meeting our priest for dinner in the Italian near by ... Wonder if I should get him to sign off on DS going to the Catholic school over liquours and after dinner mints ...

OP I would be cross too. I have not sent DS to the faith school as our nearest state Primary is excellent and very local so all the local kids go there and I like him to be with his friends. It sucks that people cheat & lie and deprive a Catholic child of a Catholic education tho, especially when regular church goers donate so much time, energy and money to making the schools happen then arent able to use them cos of a bunch of plastic catholics