Local schools oversubscribed

[JumpJockey]

We live in a city with plenty of primary schools. Having just looked at the list on the council website, the ones closest to us are all regularly or sometimes oversubscribed and appeals haven't been successful. The closest one which is "usually able to meet all parental requests for admission" is 2.7 miles away and to get to it we'd be going past at least 4 of the other schools.

Is this a fairly common situation?! I imagine we should be confident that dd would get a place at our nearest school, even though it is oversubscribed, because we're not that far away from it. But does it often happen that people end up at schools much further away just because of siblings taking up places etc?

NB dd is 1.5 so we're only just starting to think about all this and have no actual knowledge of how it works, so sorry for silly question!

not a silly question

yes it's fairly common...

yes people end up in schools further away...

Unfortunately in some areas becoming increasingly common as the birth rate has gone up, but not the number of school places....

Also in some areas you can end up living in a "dead spot" where you are just a bit too far away to get a place based on distance, so end up with a school miles away...

Great that you are planning ahead though.

See if you can find out (the school will probably be able to tell you) for your nearest few schools roughly how far away they drawn the line (and check if your LA operates "catchments, some do, some don't). Obviously this changes year to year based on number of siblings etc, but it will give you an idea. If say you are 0.4km away & the last few years people have got places up to about 0.8km away they you will probably be ok, however if this is 0.45km instead it's starts looking dodgy especially if you happen to hit a year with lots of siblings...

Also if there are a lot of faith schools in your area this can skew things as you may not stand a chance of getting in (it varies though so do check) to them, which has a knock-on impact on the community schools.

Lots to think about, but better to be sussing it out now than a week before your DDs application is due in

Also Oversubscribed means (certainly in equal preference system) that more people applied in one of their three choices, than there were places. So local to me one school describes itself as oversubscribed, whereas a lot of people who put it down don't really want it and it usually has places.
So do talk to the schools, go and look round. I did when my DS was 2, as we were about to move and I needed to make sure any house we bought was in the catchment of a school I liked.

All LAs have to use the equal preference system that Mummytime mentions. The significance of equal preference is that your chances of getting admitted to a particular school are not affected by whether you put it as your first, second or third choice. However, the order of your choices does matter. If you get a place at your first choice school you will only be offered that place, even if you also got places at your second and third choices.

Appeals for places in reception are often heard under infant class size rules which makes it difficult to win, hence the lack of successful appeals.

BetsyBoop's advice is good.

Thanks for that - I hadn't realised that if you put a school down as second choice that still counted towards the oversubscription.

There is certainly expected to be pressure on places in dd's year, the midwife said that there was a definite "baby boom" in the 6 months around when she was born (and it was very hard to get an appointment to see her, which kind of bore out the argument!) so we were a bit worried about the schools situation.

Betsy, there are official catchment areas, and we're close-ish to the borders of several though definitely within the one for our nearest school. I'll ask around some of the local mums and see what they found the situation to be as well. Thanks all

if there are catchments in operation then unless you'd rather sell a kidney than send your DC there, I would definitely include the catchment school on your list of preferences, (even if it's last choice as a fall back position). You would be unlucky not to get a place so long as it is one of your preferences. If you don't include it and don't get any of your preferences & the catchment school is oversubscribed, then very often you end up in the least popular school in the borough & miles away, which in the vast majority of cases is a worse option all round than the "just about ok" catchment school.

Of course if your catchment school is fab then it's not so much of a concern

betsy - interesting you should say that, the catchment school unfortunately is our least favourite I know things may change dramatically in 4 years time but the kids who come out of the school to the local playground are full of rather fruity language and it's got the worst ofsted of any of the ones at this end of town. Oh well! You never know what may happen over the next few years

The school we'd ideally like is attached to our church, but is very much oversubscribed and while we're only a mile away, apparently that can be too far if there's a year with lots of siblings.

is the Church school Voluntary Aided (VA) or Voluntary Controlled (VC)?

If it's VA then the school will be the admissions authority & it's highly likely (especially if oversubscribed) that there will be priority given to families who attend Church regularly. So if you go to Church anyway, just make sure you check the admissions criteria as to what is required & make sure you meet it. (Some places even have a "register" at the back of Church for you to sign for school admissions purposes)

If it's VC then the LA will be the admissions authority & the criteria will be the standard LA ones (same as any other LA community school) so attendance at Church or not makes no difference unfortunately.

If your catchment school is not so good, try & identify which school(s) you would be likely to get if you didn't get any of your preferences - so you can make an informed decision about whether or not to include your catchment school as the lesser of two evils...

Like you said though, a lot can change in 4 years, but it does no harm to keep your eye on the ball.

FWIW, We did exactly what you are doing when DD was a similar age & she starts at our 1st choice school in Sept Many others we know didn't do their research & are now appealing to get into said school (with little chance of success as it's infant class size appeal...) The system isn't always "fair" but you have to do the best you can for your DC within the constraints of the system we've got

Betsy - it's voluntary aided (I've just discovered!) and you have to fill in a special admissions form - but all that asks for is a baptism certificate. Not as detailed as the brilliant one someone posted the other day super-detailed form I didn't realise that was the difference between VC and VA so thanks for the very simple explanation!

The LA should have an admissions booklet on their website. That will give you the admission criteria for the LA controlled primary schools and also for the Church schools. That will tell you if any further supporting evidence is needed. Of course, it is several years until your DD will need a place so the admission criteria may change. If you want your child to go to a Church school it is a good idea to start attending Church regularly even if it isn't currently part of the school's criteria.

jumpjockey - it's worth digging a bit deeper (ask the school) just to check exactly what the current criteria are (as prh47 said they may change anyway, but if the school is getting increasingly popular they will probably get "tighter" if anything)

You saying baptism cert makes me think RC school? I know our local RC school (it's about 20m from our front door, but no way DD would stand a chance of getting in!) says in it's admissions criteria priority for "baptised catholic children of practicing parents (certificate of baptism required)" & the LA website shows the standard diocese supplementary form which just asks which church you attend - however the school have their own reference form for the priest to complete as well on which he has to indicate whether attendance is weekly/fornightly/monthly etc. & what other church activities you are involved in. This isn't on the LA or school website , but sent out with the school prospectus if people ask for one. I know quite a few people who have "upped their game" in the attendance stakes in the run up to school apps . I've no idea if/how they use that information to decide which parents are more "practising" than others though, transparent it isn't...

As I said before the system isn't always "fair"...

I've learnt here that some RC churches have an attendance register that you sign when you go to Mass, so the Priest can check you attend the required number of times a month.

A local to me RC school has gone from requiring a Baptised parent or the Child baptised, to only taking children's baptism into account. (This was to allow committed christiands of other denominations preference over nominal catholics.)

It is an RC school, well spotted

We're hoping that since DH and I both sing in the choir (and have done for the past 6 years), that they know we're quite regular attenders rather than 'school converts'! Certainly none of our friends with children at the school has mentioned a register to sign, it's more just that the priest says hello on the way out at the end of mass.

It's only really becoming an issue now because we're thinking if we want to have another child, we'll need to move house to have enough space, and is it worth moving closer to one of the other preferred schools, so that if we don't make it to our favourite one we'd at least have a better chance of one of the others. The application form only allows us to put down 2 schools, and we'd rather she didn't end up at our catchment area school (well, not right now, as we know things may change!)

If it's a VA school then it often works on parishes as "catchments" - do you live in one of the parishes the school serves (some do one parish, some do >1) and/or is the church you attend one of the parish churches? So long as you live and/or worship within one of the parishes the school I think you would be unlucky not to get a place as it is obvious you are not a "school place convert". I would have a chat with the priest/headteacher to suss out the likelihood of a place, as I said before some RC schools do seem to judge whether somes parents are more "practising" than others & this is in your favour

Jumpjockey,
For 2011-12 admissions onwards the form must allow at least three preferences if you are in England.
I would actually argue that anything less than 3 does not allow you to express your preferences.

Admission - that's interesting, and a good point! I was a bit surprised to be honest that you had two 'choices'.

A friend who's littlest is due to start next year sent the details from this year's intake. 30 places, of which 3 went to children without siblings already at the school! As she's noted though, this may well be good for us in that many of these children are the last in their families, so there will be far fewer siblings automatically being given places when it comes to dd's time to apply.

Oh, and the furthest away of the non-siblings was 2.4 miles... The school officially covers our parish and that of a nearby village with a Catholic church - but given that they're 6 miles away, I doubt they really get a look-in at the school. There's another RC church in the north of town which has its own school as well, so it's not that this one is trying to take every single Catholic child in the city.

Thanks everyone for your help and thoughts, will let you know how it turns out in 4 years time

hie, my family and i are moving to Holland park and i have 2 girls aged 6 and 4, can anyone recommend any good state schools in and around this area. Our move has been quite unexpected so we hadn't applied for the girls to transfer anywhere. I'm well aware of the craziness of the situation and the ridiculous time issues but i was hoping to try and get them a transfer for September. Given the current state of state school education,i'm prepared to opt for an independent school as a last resort. Can anyone help me on how to go about this?

tafi - you will probably get a better response if you start your own thread with a title asking for school recommendations in Holland Park (can't help with that qu sorry)

Admission - I'd heard that was coming in (the 3 preference thing)- in our area you are only allowed one preference currently, which makes a bit of a mockery of having "choice" TBH, as you should be pretty sure you are going to get your only preference to put it down, or you end up with the school no one wants, rather than what might have been your second, third etc choice...as have many people I know this year, as they didn't do their "homework"...

jumpjockey - fingers crossed you get the school you want

admission and prh47 bridge, you gave me some very helpful advice recently regarding my upcoming infant class size appeal. my ds didn't get into any of our choices. the school we wanted is the closest to our home (we don't have catchment areas)and one that all our other children have attended. it is oversubscribed for the first time this year. we missed out by a distance of 0.025 of a mile further than the last child to be given a place (40.23 metres) and would have been the next child in, based on distance criteria, at time of allocation. You both very kindly brought up that my best grounds for appeal are the fact that my LA measure to the main school gate but that the infant children are not allowed to officially use that gate due to H&S as they then have to cross the staff car park. I have several school newsletters dating back to 2007 to present, confirming this. I have brought up the subject of the infant gate up at a meeting I have just had with a councillor and a lady from admissions but they have totally dismissed my theory, claiming that they have to use the main gate for all schools in their borough, and this has been approved by all headteachers collectively. does this mean that there's no point going down this route at appeal? feel totally confused and deflated. We also live down a lane with only one access route in and out, which leads directly up to the school we wanted. they have told us today we should have elaborated this fact on our application form and that may have helped, which i feel devastated about, as now its too late. any further advice would be greatly appreciated...

This gets better and better!

They are trying to put you off. They do not have to use the main gate for all schools in their borough. There is nothing in the regulations about this at all. They should set a sensible policy. Many councils use different gates for different schools. Some measure to the nearest gate. In my view measuring to a gate the infants are not allowed to use is ridiculous. I would argue that as far as the infants are concerned the "infant gate" IS the "main gate" as it is the only one they are allowed to use. The fact that all the head teachers have approved the policy doesn't make it sensible.

As for you having to tell the LA that you live down a lane with only one access route which leads directly to the school, that just beggars belief. If they are going to measure using the shortest walking route they have to know that kind of thing. This is more ammunition for the appeal as it says to me that the LA hasn't done its job properly.

thanks prh, i feel sooo confused! they measure in a straight line, not by walking route or we would def be in, as our journey by walking route is so straight forward and schort in comparison to other addresses. John Chard has also advised me that the gate is relevant and my best grounds. they just dismissed me today though and didn't seem at all concerned. not going to give up though, thanks ever so much...

If they measure straight line I don't see the relevance of the lane with one access route. Strange.

I'm sure the council is convinced they've got it right. The appeal panel has to decide. To be honest this is one which I'd take to the LGO if the appeal failed so that they could make a ruling on the council's approach to measuring distance, but I hope that doesn't turn out to be necessary.

Good luck.

The simple fact is that the main gate that is used at this school for the infants is the one that you have indicated and not the main one of the school. You have documentary evidence to prove that and the LA do not even seem to be denying that fact.

The idea that all the heads have agreed that the main gate of each school will be used is a bit of poetic licence. The school admission criteria for each school is approved every year by the Local Authority Councillors after appropriate consultations on any proposed changes. That is what happens, not some kind of big meeting of all the heads. You are being fed a story to put you off going to appeal.

If it is straight line distance measurement can you print off a google map and place the gates on the map and draw the straight line distance from home to each gate. If the infant gate is nearer then that is good grounds for going to appeal. It is not up to anybody else but the panel to decide what the admission criteria means. If as in this case there is a clear case of potential confusion then the panel has to decide how to interpret the data.

Be under no illusions the panel may come down on confirming the main gate as the agreed entrance but i would hope that any reasonable panel will see the illogic of not allowing the infants through the main gate on a day to day basis. If the panel decide that there should have been measurements to the alternate gate then they will have to get the measurements done again for all applicants. If on the remeasurement you would have been offered a place in the original allocation, then you will be offered a place. But it is possible that you will still not be within the number of places allocated. Under that scenario you will not be offered a place.

I do have to agree with PRH that this is one of those cases where if the panel agree to the main gate being the only gate that can be used, then I would go to the LGO over it.

thank you both so much for your advice.
admission - yes, we have printed off google maps, and, measuring in a straight line from home to school, the line goes straight through the infant gate, it is much closer to our home. if we were walking to school, we would have to physically walk past this gate to get to the 'main' gate, which obviously we wouldn't do, as if we did we would be turned away again anyway by the member of staff that they position at the 'main' gate every morning to direct the relevant children and parents to the relevant gate, i.e. infants to the infant gate. my husband went out with a pedometer early this morning, (very embarrasing, hope nobody saw!)and measured the straight line difference between the 2 gates. it was a difference of 84.4 metres and we missed out on distance to the next nearest person by 40.23 metres. ....

Get your appeal in. I would actually quote in the appeal the distance betwen the two gates and the distance you missed out by, just so it is very obvious to the panel how critical this decision is that they have to make.
It will also make good reading (from your point of view) that you quote that a member of staff is directing traffic every morning at the main gate and turning away infant pupils to the other gate.
You have some good facts to put before the panel, so go for it.