second child not got a place

[chesnut]

We live just outside the catchment area of my son's school. We selected it as our first preference and we got him in 2 years ago under the last criteria -"any other applicants". Now we have applied for my daughter who is due to start Autumn 2010 and the class is full. Despite her having an older sibling , she missed out. We are at a loss at the moment. This must have happened to somebody else. Any advice would be appreciated - we are very upset about the situation.

Have you checked that the criteria was applied correctly as that would mean every other child has a sibling at the school too?

What is the precise criteria?

Is it catchment dc with sibling
catchment dc
non-catchment dc with sibling
or non-catchment dc

It goes, in catchment with sibling, in catchment, then sibling out of catchment, then any other applicants.

How would I go about checking the criteria have been correctly applied? I must admit the dust is still in the air as this was a bombshell because the school is not a 'top rated one'

Thanks for all input!

When you appeal they will have to prove that it has been applied correcly. It is possible that the fact there was a sibling was overlooked or soemthing.

Ask on here about grounds for appealing it's always worth try plus staying on the waiting list for the school.

Yes we are definitely going to appeal. We don't know whether or not to try and appear in person and plead that it is unreasonable to expect us to take them to two different schools. Not sure of our cchances as the class is full. Should we, at the same time of the appeal, request proof from them that all the criteria have been followed, or is that something we should do once the County Council come back from their Easter jollies? We are contacting them 8th April anyway to find out where she is on the waiting list.

I think someone else said that you can ask where all the successful applicants live so you can check?

Unfortunately in catchment area schools applying out of catchment is always going to be a risk. When is your dd 5 as you could always keep her out of school altogether until a place comes up especially if you feel happy to HE for a while.

Well we will definitely ask the questions. We are not holding out much hope though. Thanks for your input.

No advice but much sympathy. I'm terrified this will happen with dd3. We have never lived in catchment but she will still have a sibling there. I guess it just depends every year on how many children live within catchment. You should definately appeal and then wait it out - I wouldn't think there are many children on the waiting list with siblings are there? So she will be near the top of the list? When is she 5?

We're concerned this will happen to us too. Ds is in year 5 at a non cathcment school that he got into, and dd is due to start in September. It is a popular school but as a sibling I'm hoping she'll get in - I've also mentioned that she has a slight disability, but don't know if that's taken into account at all. Would it be? It wouldn't be absolutley the end of the world if she got into the catchment school, but it would be a shame - and a faff getting them to two schools!

This happened at school this year, little boy in DS's P1 class that had 2 older sisters in the same school but outside catchment had to go to a different school down the road for 5 months then moved when someone left.

This boy was top of the waiting list meant to add

It is entirely possible that the places were taken by children who are in catchment with/without siblings though.

having said that, you have very good grounds to appeal - how are you supposed to be in 2 places at once at 9am?!

dd concerned is not 4 until Mid august. The school we would like her in would acccept her mid October. School she has been allocated will accept her after Xmas.

Athough I sympathise, if you are successful in appealing then that makes a mockery of the admissions rules. They clearly state children in catchment have priority over siblings out of catchment. If you win then everybody in the same boat as you could appeal on the same basis thus negating the second rule.

This happened to me 15 years ago. My DD got a place at top rated local church school as her year was a low birth year. I only accepted the place as the admission criteria at time put siblings second only after church goers.

They subsequently changed the criteria (without telling parents and applied it immediately so that siblings out of catchment were bottom of the pile). A first child who was out of catchment but nearer to the school got a place before us (even though he was actually closer to the other local school!)

WE took the appeal all the way to Education dept but they had very little influence as it was a church school. They did say that the school was wrong and most schools would have caved but this one didn't.

It would have meant that both children finished school at the same time (a mile apart). The best they could offer was that my older child could wait in reception till I got there!

They offered to put us on the waiting list (we were 12th) and anyone moving into the area would have gone above us.

In the end, we (and another family) withdrew our eldest children and sent them both to the other local school. My eldest wanted to do this as she (age 6 - bless her) didn't want to go to a school that wouldn't have her brother.

They did change their admissions policy again the following year so they knew that they wre wrong.

Good luck.

If it is full then it is full and people who live there come first. I would go on a waiting list. It is quite common-especially if the school is popular.

Thanks. I don't hold out much hope of the appeal being successful, but it is ridiculous to expect us to be in two places at once! I think our only hope will be if she is near the top of the waiting list, and someone leaves. I'm hoping there will be some movement between schools but how much? This is a freaky birth year apparently,but my son is very seetled and we are loathed to uproot him.

Frankly I feel the system is a mockery already if it lets my son into a school out of our catchment and then makes no provision for my daughter.

The way I am feeling at the moment, I long for the good old days where you went where you were allocated as this is not a 'choice'.

There should not be such a big difference between schools, all schools should be up to the best standards of education.

I think that it is a chance that you take if you are not top of the criteria i.e living in the catchment area. You might find there is a place-sometimes people have one as an insurance policy but may send privately. Where I have known it happen, they have got a place as soon as someone moves.

We are in the same boat, exept we have two siblings already at the school. This is the first year the school has been over subscribed, and for some reason it's over subscribed by 29!

We are hoping there will be some movement between schools over the next few months. I know some people got our school and didn't really want it, and others got another school and really wanted our school, so hopefully it will even out. The LEA seem to have gone strictly via their catchment criteria, rather than looking at individual cases, which I understand, but if they can do some juggling round, a lot more people will get the school the want. I also know a couple of people who got our school, but weren't really that fussed, because it's their first child, and all the schools are near each other, so for them to go to another school would be fine for them. It's unfair, but I guess the LEA have to follow rules.

We are on the waiting list ( number 11, sigh ) and I am prepared to keep him at home in September and wait it out a bit longer, but it's impossible to predict how it will go at the moment.

I do know though, that I can't do two different school runs, and I can't move my other two children to a different school, so it feels like I'm stuck between a rock and hard place.

I am really sorry but I don't think you have much room for complaint unless they changed their admission policy since you sent your elder child there.

If not, then you took a massive risk sending your elder child there in the first place as you must have known there was a chance your youngest would not get a place.

I actually don't think this is a bad rule as it would stop what happens at my DC's school which is people getting their eldest in and immeadiately moving out of the area.

I can understand why they have these policies - the school in our case would have been turning away people in the catchment area because of out of catchment siblings. Difficult for them too. But for us they changed the admission criteria after our first child started.

Op - my area has some Army housing and the people move a lot - obviously - they have to apply for a place at the school but move on before term starts. Is there much movement in your area - may be worth asking the school what how realistic the chances are of you moving up the waiting list?

Our school built more classrooms as it was over subscribed and there are no other schools.

This is a difficult situation. Whilst the panel will have every sympathy that you cannot be in two places at once, they will not take give much weight to this when it comes to making a decision. The view will be that you have to make suitable arrangements to get both to their appropriate schools.

I would suggest that you establish whether there is a place in the school you have been given a place at, for your other sibling. If there is not then it gives you a bit of a case to say that you cannot transfer both siblings to the same school.

You should appeal because you need to be clear about the circumstances as to why you have not been allocated a place. Does your letter of placement indicate what the last pupil was allocated on - was it on in-catchment pupils?

What you need to do is look for the reasons why the school you asked for is the only one that is appropriate. This could be pre / after school clubs or something similar.

Excellent advice already from Admission.

Have a look at the other recent threads about primary admissions. Within each criterion, is distance to school used to rank the applications? You need to check that (as I assume) the school filled all places with children in catchment and out of catchment children with siblings who live nearer than you do.

As Admission says, the appeal panel probably won't allow an appeal only on the grounds that you can't have two children in two schools - you would have to demonstrate why your older child could not go to the school you've been allocated for your younger child. You'd also need to demonstrate why you couldn't arrange a lift share, use a childminder for the school run etc.

Another consideration is that, if the intake is 30 or a multiple of 30, this is probably going to be an infant class size appeal. The panel can allow appeals in these cases only in very tightly-defined circumstances, essentially, where there has been an error or maladministration - see the other threads and the DCSF website.

Is she on the waiting list? - hopefully they will get some people turn down their offers and a place may become available for her.