Class sizes in junior school

[debs40]

I've just read a piece on the beeb website about class sizes.

I was surprised to see the average junior school class size is 26.8.

My son is in Y2 at a primary in a class of 28. Yr 3 will be a class of 35!

I know that other posters have posted before saying their schools class sizes are as big but I wonder why this is. Why do some schools manage to limit classes to around 26/27 and others open their doors to 35/6?

It clearly affects the quality of education.

I really worry how my son (who has ASD) will cope in such a big group

I discovered only recently that DD is in a class of 38.

38?

She's getting on just fine, but she is capable and happy to work independently. I do wonder how she would fare if she was struggling.

KS1 classes are kept to 30 and below, but KS2 have no legal limit. Totally agree with it affecting the quality of education, teacher time and relationships.
You will need to discuss and implement coping strategies, seating, friendship paring and resources for your boy with the teacher before next year. Try and get the two teachers involved to sit down together. That is if this year's one has been any good.

There are 25 in each of my kids classes. The class size is up to 30 but they haven't got a full class at the moment.

I work in a school and our maximum class size is always 30.

'I discovered only recently that DD is in a class of 38.'

Since September? Why did it take you so long to find out?

Didn't feel the need to ask. As I said, she's getting along just fine.

We find numbers increase in the juniors because families move into the area (lots of new housing developments with cheaper housing than neighbouring areas) and as there is no legal limit on class size we are compelled to accept every child who requests a place.
I heard on the news the NUT are asking for a class size limit of 20!

I only found out because it was her birthday and I needed to know how many lollipops to buy.

Is it something one should find out at the beginning of the school year? If so, why?

If your daughter's school is anything like our's you could start in September with a nice 30- and by Easter have 36+

Goblin....I know class sizes can grow during the year if heads take more children in!

Why are some schools willing to pile more kids into the class though? Is it money? Does it help their SATS averages? I don't understand it.

That is the worry Goblin. This school know nothing about ASD and are trying to pick it up as they go along but have been very defensive about parental involvement this year. They see it as me stepping on teachers' toes, even when they know, that I know they know nothing .

They have just had the class TA in Y2 trained on the Early Bird Plus course so that has helped but the week we finished the course, they moved her from the class without explanation (to us) anyway. It's going to get worse

Then you will have to get tougher too, whilst being supportive and unctuous towards the school if they are being defensive and stubborn. try and lead them towards the right decisions and support for your son. be very specific and detailed about whet you want to happen.
If that doesn't work then get the SENCOP and batter them into compliance. Use the inclusion team and IPSEA, and anyone else that's involved with assessing your son's needs. Do things in writing, get agreements written and signed, print and file emails. Post here and use the experiences of the rest of us.

debs schools are told by the LA they must accept pupils it isn't by choice

38

Here in France the maximum average number of children per class in primary is 25 - which means that in a year group of, say, 5 classes, you can have some classes of 18 and others of 29.

Mrz does that mean if 50 applied for a place they would have to accept? There must be some point at which a school/LA says enough!

Goblin....I have been through the battering with SENCOP many times already. You just wonder whether you are wasting your time and that another school might be more receptive.

schools usually say enough long before LAs agree.

debs, I'd agree that schools vary hugely in their approach and attitude towards spectrum children. So another school may well do much better, but you'd need to know a lot more from a range of sources before moving him.
Do you meet up with any local groups where you could get some parental info, rather than the school line?

There is an NAS branch just starting here but only one person so far I know has a primary school age child and they're having a worse time than me. It's a small town (well supposed to be a city but very small) with a predominantly rural LA.

Big classes then a selective secondary school system...I'm just wondering whether to jack and move areas altogether frankly!

Large class size sometimes has to do PAN numbers and undersubscription. For example our school has a PAN of 54 but in the higher years is undersubscribed. In one year there are 34 children. There are simply not the funds to employ another teacher to split threm into two classes and too many in the surrounding years to do composite classes. If another 20 children joined we'd have to admit them as the year's PAN hasn't been reached. That'd be unlikely but say another 4 joined to take the class up to 38. The School wouldn't get funding for those children until the next year.
Schools that manage to maintain their class sizes to around 30 are those with PAN's that are divisable by 30 or near enough and have stable numbers of children.

What is PAN?

Published Admission Numbers Each year the Local Authority publishes an admissions number (PAN) for each school. This is the number of pupils that the Local Authority intends to admit into each school.

I see. DS' school cannot take more than one class a year so I am surprised that LAs allow figures in excess of 35.

Planned Admission Number
All schools have a Net Capacity,which is the number of pupils it can physically take - it would normally only change when teaching space within the school is increased or reduced.
Planned Admission Numbers are usually set by dividing the Net Capacity by the number of year groups. The school will admit pupils up to the PAN in each year group.

The setting of a PAN automatically implies that the admission of pupils above that number would be prejudicial to the quality of education provided to existing pupils.

My school is single form entry too but had a PAN of 46! the head and governors had to petition to reduce the numbers to 29 but it doesn't stop us getting classes of 30+ in KS2.

Think we need to understand exactly what should and shouldn't happen in schools.
In infant classes the numbers in each class are limited to 30 pupils with each school teacher and as others have stated there is no upper limit in junior classes.
However the number of pupils that the school can admit is governed by the PAN (Published admission number) for each year group. So if that PAN is 30, then the school should not be admitting any pupils above 30 to that year group, if the PAN is 35 then 35 can be admitted. It is not upto the head of the school as to whether they can admit, nor is it upto the Local Authority, other than in certain situations. In normal circumstances the people who should be admitting pupils over and above the PAN should be an admission appeal panel.
Whether a panel will admit over 30 into a class depends on all sorts of issues firstly relating to the school, such as the size of the class room, and secondly on the personal circumstances of the appealant.
I regret to say that some headteachers are rather more cavalier in their attitude to these rules than others, which is one of the reasons why all admissions in year to schools are being moved from the school to being administered by the Local Authority in the future.
Yes the more pupils there are the more funding the school gets, but it is not immediately after someone joins the school. In effect the school is funded on the basis of the number of pupils in a school on a set date in January and the funding then starts based on that number in April for the next 12 months.

We tend to have much smaller classes in KS2 than in KS1, in dd's school. So far, at least.

Its been an undersubscribed school that has turned around, and now has a great reputation and is oversubscribed (along with all the local primary schools, for that matter). dd's year (Y1) is a bulge class, last year's YR was double intake, next year's double intake again....so no idea what will happen in the future, but for now, classes in KS2 seem to range from under 20 to 20-something. None has reached 30 afaik.

London, btw.

admission...thanks for that. Each the junior class in DS's school admits around 35-6 each and every year. It is what they plan for and expect. I am just surprised that this is the case when some schools seem to manage to limit their classes to 30.