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Primary education

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Original poster

Just had our first choice place withdrawn

55 replies

fin35 · 03/03/2010 23:15

I am in total shock and need a bit of a rant!

We have just had our first choice place withdrawn due to an admin error. Despite the school checking distances 4 times by different people they got ours wrong and have taken our place away to give it to someone living nearer. The school is faith based (although we have non faith place) so can make up their own rules.

Truly devastated because I stupidly got excited and told DD that she would be going to school with all her friends from pre-school. I know she will get over it - BUT - they just didn't seem to comprehend that the whole process is an emotional rollercoaster as it is without the rug being pulled out 5 days after hearing great news.

Now we have to deal with waiting lists for schools when we thought the process was sorted - and also have to look at changing the pre-school place for my DS because I physically won't be able to get him there and get my daughter to school because of the commute between sites. AGGHHH!!!

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chicaguapa · 18/03/2010 11:26

All the legal gubbins aside, have you actually considered that after all this, you might not actually want your DC to go to that school after all? The Governors don't sound like they are the sort of Governors I'd like to be in charge of my DC school. And the fact that the administration obviously consider their behaviour to be reasonable would set alarm bells off in my head. Are there any other schools worth going to?

Original poster
fin35 · 24/03/2010 21:06

Chicaguapa - it certainly raises questions doesn't it! I have to look at the Education stsandards of this school which are excellent and listen to the Mums who have kids there - and they are happy. If only there were loads of schools to choose from and not so many children! Typically it seems, houses are being built with no infrastructure to cope with the growing number of families. At the moment I will have to undergo a 6 mile round trip. Fingers crossed for this school or our second choice - which we are on the waiting lsit for.

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Original poster
fin35 · 24/03/2010 21:07

Admisssions - just to let you know the Governors got back to us after over a weeks wait.. they feel an error by them is a perfectly justifiable reason for withdrawing a place....

We will just have to wait to see what the appeal panel thinks of para 1.50

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admission · 24/03/2010 23:59

A regretable situation that you need to go to an appeal, but hopefully the appeal panel will be far more aware of the regs than the governors of the school.

prh47bridge · 25/03/2010 00:05

An error by them is absolutely NOT a justifiable reason for withdrawing a place, especially after 5 days. They clearly don't understand the School Admissions Code.

Have you made a fuss at the LA yet? I know this is a faith school but the LA still has a lot of power and should be telling the school that they cannot withdraw the offer. If you haven't already done so, send a written complaint (email or letter) to the Admissions Manager and the Director of Childrens Services. That may be enough to stop this before it gets to the appeal hearing.

If you do have to go to a hearing, let's hope you get an appeal panel that understands the rules. I'd throw the LGO case I mentioned into the argument for the panel as well.

Original poster
fin35 · 02/04/2010 18:24

prh47bridge - thanks for the further info - we have tried to find all of the details of the case you mention and can only find a very brief summary which is difficult to use as evidence - do you have any idea where / how we could view the full documents.

any help much appreciated!

thanks

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BetsyBoop · 02/04/2010 19:24

fin - I've looked for this one before & the olny "official" thing I found online was on the LGO website, but there is only a brief mention -

"1. York City C 99C01876-7, 02048, 02262, 03434, 03557, 03559 & 03561
26 April 00 MI
unauthorised offers of places to five children made by headteacher ? withdrawn ? places
reinstated ? conflict between headteacher and LEA ? other children top of waiting list not
given places"

I would have thought that the LGO should be able to provide a full copy of the judgement if you contact them?

admission · 03/04/2010 15:58

Fin,
To be honest the full judgement will not help you very much as each particular case needs to be viewed separately and depends on the detail of what actually happened.
There is another court case which is Regine v Beatrix Potter School ex parte K (1997)in which an offer was made by the head but withdrawn within 24 hours by the LA. The High Court ruled that as the offer was withdrawn the same day it had been made that in those circumstances the expectation of the parent was defeated. In other words the places could be withdrawn. An on the ball LA is going to quote that case at you to suggest that they can withdraw the place.
The complaint 99/C/1876 refers to one where the time span was 3 days and the time span was consider too long in this case and the places were kept.
The determining factor is generally considered to be the time span between official notification of being given the place and the point at which it was withdrawn. But there is no definitive right or wrong on this.
You need to keep quoting the 99/C/1876 case at the LA and telling them the time span is too long to withdraw the offer of a place but the only definitive answer is going to come from the LGO or the High Court as they are the only ones who can make a legal judgement on the situation.

prh47bridge · 03/04/2010 17:38

Fin - Sorry for the delay responding.

As there isn't a detailed description on the LGO website, I'd simply summarise the case for the panel. Five children were offered places incorrectly by the head teacher. Three days later the LA withdrew the offers. The case ended up with the LGO who ruled that the delay in withdrawing the places was too long. If you can get a full copy of the findings from the LGO that would be a bonus.

The appeal panel should know that you can't withdraw a place once it has been offered. However, having come across panels that haven't been trained properly, I'm always a bit wary, which is why I recommend having as much information as possible to back up your position.

As Admission says, keep leaning on the LA. Ideally you want the LA to make the school back down before this gets to appeal.

chesnut · 05/04/2010 13:14

You must feel absolutely distraught. Don't take it lying down!!!

Good Luck to you.

chesnut · 05/04/2010 13:23

The more I think about it, the more this stinks. I agree that the governing body of this school sound a disreputable bunch with no code of morals.

Original poster
fin35 · 05/04/2010 22:52

Thanks all - have now sent a complaint to the SCC cabinet member for children and learning. There doesn't appear to be a director of education anymore in Surrey but will get on the blower tomorrow to double check.

Chesnut - they do don't they!! Makes you wonder....

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prh47bridge · 05/04/2010 23:04

Fin - You want Andy Roberts, the Director of Services for Children, Schools and Families. In most councils this job is now known as the Director of Children's Services.

Original poster
fin35 · 05/04/2010 23:22

prh47bridge - thanks - invaluable help you guys are giving me - the SCC website is crazy to find the contact and email details!

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charma1ne · 08/04/2010 18:39

I have had the exact same thing happened to me today. The LA send me a offer on the 17th of March, and called me to say that the offer has to be withdrawn today on the basis of a measurement mistake. It is just amazing that they take 3 weeks to figure out the mistake.

I am going to appeal for sure. Maybe we could help each other building on the apeal?

prh47bridge · 08/04/2010 19:28

You shouldn't need to appeal. Fin didn't.

The LA is not allowed to withdraw an offer on the basis that they have made mistake, especially after 3 weeks. That place is yours and, unless you lied about where you live, they can't take it away from you.

Ring them tomorrow and point out that under paragraph 1.50 of the School Admissions Code there are only very limited grounds for withdrawing an offer once it is made. A mistake in measuring is not one of them. Remind them that the Local Government Ombudsman has previously ruled that a delay of 3 days in withdrawing an offer amounts to maladministration, so a delay of 3 weeks is maladministration in spades!

If that doesn't get you anywhere, complain in writing (an email will do) to the Admissions Manager and the Director of Childrens Services at your LA. State the facts, refer to paragraph 1.50 and mention the LGO. Give them a deadline by which you expect a response - 7 days should be enough.

In the unlikely event that they don't then honour the original offer, you can then take it to the LGO confident in the knowledge that they will find in your favour.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

charma1ne · 08/04/2010 19:38

No I did not lie about anything. They said in the letter:

"having considered the matter carefully and giving it considerable thought I have decided that, on balance the right thing to do is to WITHDRAW THE PLACE OFFERED TO M..... at ST Johns. This decision was not taken lightly, but is in line with the school admission code par. 1.50 whereby the LA, not the Authority of St. Johns , offered the place under the co-ordinated scheme by mistake.

I have send a e-mail to the Director of Children's Services.

My argument with them was that you can not wait 22 days after offering the place to withdrawn it. Could they not realised earlier? We are gutted.

clam · 08/04/2010 20:27

They haven't got a leg to stand on charma. Their mistake, their problem. That paragraph actually works against them.

I know it's very worrying at the moment, but that school place is yours and you will win.

admission · 08/04/2010 20:41

Charma1ne,
I hate to be the giver of bad tidings but section 1.50 does have a sentence that does say if the Local Authority not the admission authority (St Johns) made the mistake then the place can be withdrawn, but it has to be seen in the context of other issues.

There is the issue of the legal judgements over the timing of such withdrawals to take into consideration and 22 days is just totally unacceptable from any standpoint. It is also questionable who made the mistake on the distance measurement, the LA or the admission authority.

I would do as PRH has suggested send an email to the Director of Childrens Services and the Admissions Manager and quote the 3 day legal judgement at them rather than section 1.50 and say that this is the key issue, not who made a mistake. If they still will not budge I would go straight to the Schools Adjudicator because this is a really important point that needs to be sorted out. It will also be probably the quickest way of getting it sorted, rather than going to appeal

admission · 08/04/2010 20:53

Sorry in my last post I said complain to the Schools Adjudicator, I should have said to the Local Government Ombudsman.

charma1ne · 08/04/2010 20:56

Thanks for that admission. I would not have mind if they offered us a place at the second choice as I know it is really tough to get in a faith school, but 22 day...

I will get the case and send everyone an e-mail right this moment.

Thank you

charma1ne · 10/04/2010 21:13

I have send a letter to the school, admission manager and Director of Child servives, and received a mail from the last, saying he requested info from the admission team and will get back to me next week, so fingers cross

Original poster
fin35 · 19/04/2010 10:37

Hi Charma1ne
Just picked up your thread. Are you SCC too? I wonder if you are St Johns near me...? 22 days is absoulutely NOT ACCEPTABLE.

If you are Surrey let me know asap and I can send you some names of people I was also advised to write too. I have been sending emails all over the shop!

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Original poster
fin35 · 19/04/2010 10:53

By the way - we are having to go to appeal.

Everyone I have spoken with at the Council has advised me to do so. I am just sat here twiddling my thumbs waiting for a date. According the the leaflet I may be waiting another 4 weeks. My main worry is that my DH won't be able to attend because of work comittments. I may be hoping the airspace remains closed so he can't fly out of the country for the next month!!

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Original poster
fin35 · 09/05/2010 22:05

Great News
We have a place. Rather disappointed we didn't get to appeal... lol... as we saw their defence and it was nonsense HOWEVER the most important thing is we can now walk to school, not spend a fortune on petrol and not have to worry how I was going to get DD to Junior school for the same time DS needed to be at infant.
Hooray - but not really sunk in yet.
THANKS TO EVERYONE for their words of wisdom and support - it really has been great.

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