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Should I get a formal dyslexia test done or not?

41 replies

haggisaggis · 03/03/2010 15:49

dd struggled with learning from teh moment she started school - but seemed otherwise bright enough. (good vocabulary, general knowledge etc). She has always had problems gathering her thoughts together so it can take her a while to get her argument across -and words can be muddled. At nursery they started learning numbers at 3.5 but she still didn't know them when she started school at 5. By teh Christmas of P1 she was receiving extra help at school (daily 1-1 with teacher or TA, and weekly with learning support teacher). We planned on getting her assessed for dyslexia at end of P1 but teh learning support teacher phoned me to say she was definitely dyslexic and to save my money.
She is now 7 and continues to have support at school - although not as much emphasis seems to be put on phonics as seems to be the case in English schools and she has to learn by rote lists of words. (She usually forgets these once she has learned them so I have never really seen the point!) The learning support teacher feels that having a bank of words she can draw upon is better than her always "sounding out". ALthough dd CAN sound out those sounds she knows and it seems to me this would be a better method of teaching for her. My question is - if I have her diagnosed formally, would she be given learning strategies I could give to teh school - and if I did do you think they would listen? I could of course just give her phonics practise at home - but would rather work with the school to provide a consistent approach. (She does get some phonics at school - just not as much as I think she would benefit from). Of couse if the diagnosis wa sthat she was not dyslexic or thta a conentrated phonics approach was not what she needs I would respect that also.

OP posts:
zippy539 · 25/04/2010 22:09

OP - thanks for posting this. We're just going through this whole thing with DS (9) and I've found the responses to your post really helpful.

Thanks again.

beezmum · 26/04/2010 13:27

Dolfrog I looked at the Rose review into teaching dyslexia (the recent government commissioned report). I'm not an expert but it largely contradicted what you have said in your post. It also said very categorically that the 'treatment' remained the same whatever the causes - 'multisensory, systematic phonics'. It was a very accessible read for anyone interested...

maizieD · 26/04/2010 16:34

I think you'll find that, according to dolfrog, no-one knows anything about dyslexia apart from dolfrog. He particularly loathes the idea that systematic phonics instruction is an effective preventative of/remediation for 'dyslexia', though none of the research that he posts copius links to (just wait, he hasn't got going on here yet...)provides any justification for his stance.

haggisaggis · 26/04/2010 16:56

Well I did get dd tested by Dyslexia ACtion and they have advised she is severely dyslexic. They confirmed what I had always thought - that her verbal comprehension is very high but she has issues with memory and processing. At teh moment I am not sure that her support at school is lkely to change - she does get 1-1 support which is what DA recommended. It woudl be good if she received more structured phonic teaching - but I can do some of taht at home. DyslexiaTeach - one of dd's problems is tat she tries to soudn out EVERYTHING - including "tricky" words which cannot be sounded out effectively. She seems to have particular difficulties in remembering whole words so the "bank" of words she can read by sight (without sounding) is very small.
In some ways I agree with Dolfrog - the dyslexia itself (if you look at dd's full EdPsych report) is actually just a small part of her difficulties. Dyslexia is only considered to be a difficulty with reading / writing - so dyslexia action only look at improving this aspect of a child's development. Ideally we need to tackle all her problems - processing , memory etc and in doing that her issues with reading / writing woudl also be tackled - but at present there does not seem to be a system to do this.
By the way - has anyone heard of neuro physiological psychology and if so did it actually have any benefit to your dc?

OP posts:
beezmum · 26/04/2010 17:09

I hope this is a link to Rose's report which goes through what the up to date thinking is on what dyslexia is and how it should be being dealt with in schools.

publications.dcsf.gov.uk/eOrderingDownload/00659-2009DOM-EN.pdf

I have to say again i'm not an expert, just someone thats done lots of reading as I find this subject very interesting. In Rose's report he says that good research shows categorically that dyslexia is poor phonological awareness combined with some memory processing problems. My understanding is that poor phonological awareness means children look at words the wrong way and so solving memory issues doesn't train them to look at words differently. There can be concurrent problems but the the dyslexia aspects of a child's issues need multisensory, sytematic and very regular phonics. I wonder how that fits in with 'using phonics too much'? I'm intrigued as that doesn't quite seem to fit the very clear view from experts used for this report...

frankie3 · 26/04/2010 18:50

I have been to see the dyslexia tutor with my DS and he will start with her next week. She said that she will do multi-sensory teaching. For example if he can't spell the word "where" and spells it "were", she will say to him "where is your house?" and draw a house around the word, which will hopefully help him to remember to include an "h" in the word. This does sort of make sense to me. She also said they will write on large sheets on the wall and use playdo to spell words. Does anyone have any experience of this type of teaching?

maizieD · 26/04/2010 22:44

haggisaggis:
Dyslexia is a very thorny issue. Although people think they 'know' what dyslexia is (and this includes the dyslexia 'experts') the reviews of research always end up concluding that it is a very difficult concept to define. I actually agree with dolfrog (though we have crossed swords viciously on many a message board) that dyslexia is a symptom of something, not a discrete condition. Your child has memory and processing problems; those are her 'condition', the dyslexia is just a symptom of it. If you are going to do the structured phonics teaching at home you will need to repeat and repeat the practising of letter/sound correspondences until your child is able to respond absolutely automatically to a letter (or group of letters) with the sound (or sounds) it represents and, at the same time, use the correspondence knowledge she is learning for decoding and blending words - automatic recognition + fluent decoding and blending is what you are aiming at for successful reading. Now, this may take a very short time or it may take months and months but she will learn it in the end unless she has something very significantly amiss.
Your comment about sounding out tricky words made me wince. Did you know that learning words as 'wholes' places a huge load on memory and is virtually impossible for children with severe short term memory problems.No wonder she can't remember them! The whole point of 'tricky words' is that thay are decodable, but they contain a very unusual letter/sound correspondence. If your child is trying to 'sound out' the unusual correspondence by means of its individual letters then she has not been taught very well... This unusual correspondence can be learned like any other correspondence, then the word can be decoded and blended just like any other word. There is no need for the approach to be any different.

beezmum. I can see that Jim Rose has impressed you, but phonological deficit is just one dyslexia theory among many. I have personally found, with the children I have worked with, that the biggest problem with struggling readers is memory, not phonological processing. If the child can remember the correspondences and blend them together they can 'get' the word. Phonological deficits are more likely to affect language acquisition than to affect reading.

Interestingly, I did a big Google search recently to try and find the research evidence behind 'multisensory teaching'. To my surprise, there is none even though it feels intuitively that it must be 'right'.

I was also interested to find that Prof. Orton (whose work has a huge influence on most mainstream dyslexia programmes)did not go for all the touchy feely stuff that is often promoted as 'multisensory teaching' (some of which is plain daft) but confined the multisensory elements to auditory (hearing sounds), oral (speaking sounds/words) and kinaesthetic (writing).

maverick · 27/04/2010 08:44

Great posting, maizieD. I agree with you (and dolfrog ) that dyslexia is a symptom - it's simply a descriptive term that means 'difficulty with the written word' and is NOT a diagnosis.

For a list of unhelpful content in any intervention/dyslexia programme look here:

www.aowm73.dsl.pipex.com/dyslexics/resources_and_further_18.htm

beezmum · 27/04/2010 09:25

Thanks maizieD for that. I think I see what you mean regards the specific use of phonics.

haggisaggis · 27/04/2010 10:28

MaizieD - even the EP at Syslexia ACtion stated she would need to build up a bank of tricky words as she couldn't sound out everything and I agree with you that I reckon this is nigh on impossible for her. She has already forgotten teh words she was emant to learn in P1. She IS good at sounding out / blending but has not been given all teh tools to do this. (I have repeatedly asked teh school for the sounds she is meant to know but they have not done this. I don't think tehy are being deliberatel; obstructive, I just don't think they see it as important)
I agree with Dyslexia probably being a syptom. dd also has huge issues with numeracy but this is totally ignored by Dyslexia Action.
If there was some way of "fixing" her memory and processing issues I have no doubt that the dyslexia / numeracy issues would also be resolved - but there seems no way to do that so we have to treat teh symptoms instead!

Have you heard of neuro physiological psychology? It seems to treat a child's condition (dyspraxia / dylsexia) using a programme of physical excercises. A child at dd's school does this and according to teh website it would be beneficial for my child but I am extremely sceptical. (I also am not at all sure about subjecting dd to any further testing at this point - never mind the cost of it, but would consider it if anyone had found it actually helped)

OP posts:
maizieD · 27/04/2010 17:17

haggisaggis; you say:

"MaizieD - even the EP at Syslexia ACtion stated she would need to build up a bank of tricky words as she couldn't sound out everything "

I'm afraid that the EP was giving you very old fashioned advice which probably reflects how she was trained to teach reading (because, until quite recently, only trained teachers were accepted for training as Ed Psychs)quite a number of years ago. It is not reflected in the latest guidance on the initial teaching of reading, which quite closely follows the teaching principles of synthetic/linguistic phonics programmes (such as Jolly Phonics, ReadWrite Inc, Sound-Discovery, Sounds~Write etc. etc.) These programmes do not follow quite the same principles as the 'old fashioned'Orton Gillingham based dyslexia intervention programmes which are, yes, based on phonics, but integrate a degree of Whole Language/Look and Say thinking, most notably the thinking about High Frequency Words.

You have to understand that in the days when WL/look & say teaching was the 'norm', and phonics was a dirty word, the 'experts' became quite desperate at the inability of many children to learn to read easily with their methods. In an effort to achieve what appeared to be normal reading the Dolch list of High Frequency Words (HFWs) was brought into play. The theory was that if children were taught, say, the first 300 words on this list (by 'look & say' methods, of course) they would be able to read a great deal of text easily. So, 'learning' the HFWs was made a priority. If you look at the HFWs you will find that they are mostly all the 'function' words which appear with great regularity in text; unfortunately, in any text, apart from reading schemes deliberately written to incoporate these HFWs and to reinforce a simple, limited reading vocabulary, the words which give the text its meaning tend to be the non HFWs. Try taking a piece of text and eliminating from it all words apart from the HFWs (you'll find lists of them if you google).

Up until a couple of years ago teachers had lists of HFWs which children were supposed to learn from Reception onwards. In the interim, a certain amount of phonics was introduced to the guidance on the initial teaching of reading with the introduction of the NAtional Literacy Strategy in 1998. But the guidance (which was very 'mixed') still retained the HFWs which were to be learned as 'whole words' not by sounding out and blending. From this arose the perception that HFWs were somehow 'phonically irregular' and couldn't be sounded out. Which is almost completely erroneous!

In the meantime, Sue Lloyd, a trained SEN teacher with a very good understanding of the principles of phonics teaching, starts to develop what came to be known as Jolly Phonics. Because the HFWs were required knowledge (and, some are actually quite useful to make decodable text sound less stilted) she developed the idea of 'tricky words' to teach those useful HFWs which contain unusual or very rare letter/sound correspondences; words like 'the', 'was', 'one' etc. These words have a part which is easy to decode and a 'tricky bit'. They are decoded and blended all through the word in exactly the same way that more straightforward words are decoded and blended. I think that Sue is probably a little irritated by the way her 'invention' of tricky words', designed to be faithful to the decoding & blending principle, is being misused and misunderstood.

The other thing the EP says which I would take very strong issue with is 'she couldn't sound out everything'. That is precisely what your child must do with unfamiliar words or words she is not 'secure' with. It is the repetition of sounding out and blending which eventually puts the word into 'sight memory'. Some children only need to do it once; children with poor memories may need to do it many times...

I might sound a bit like a demented fanatic, but I can't begin to tell you how important decoding and blending is. It not only leads to reading fluency but it also teaches attention to detail, accuracy, proper L to R eyetracking, problem solving and 'flexible thinking'(e.g. in deciding which sound is correct when confronted with letters which spell more than one sound). I'll probably think of a few others later!

maizieD · 27/04/2010 17:21

P.S. Neuro physiological psychology sounds like a bit of snake oil to me.

mrz · 27/04/2010 18:01

neuro physiological psychology from what I recall is the ABC theory Attention Balance and Coordination and the Exercise for Learning project www.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/ntrp/lib/word/PreedyWolinskiandODonovan.doc

haggisaggis · 28/04/2010 10:46

mrz - THanks very much for that. Looks like there may actually be some benefit for my dd after all - the parent of the child in dd's class currently involved in this says she sees an improvement in her child but I thought it may be wishful thinking!

maizieD - I can see that I am really going to have to do the phonics stuff myself with dd. I purchased "Nessy" learning programme for her (the school use it) but it also has huge lists of "tricky" words for dd to learn (and her IEP concentrates on her learning these rather than learning more groups of sounds). Is there a scheme you recommend for home use? I am also seeing a tutor from Dyslexia Action next week to go over dd's report so hopefully she can give some recommendations too.

OP posts:
maizieD · 28/04/2010 17:06

Nessy has all those HFWs because it is based on Orton-Gillingham phonics teaching. O-G teaching was good in its time but it hasn't moved on in the light of what is known to be achievable with more 'modern' programmes. The Dyslexia Action tutor is almost bound to tell you that it is necessary to teach HFWs as 'sight words', because DA tutors are mostly all O-G trained. Just ignore that advice!

I think that a good programme for home use would be Phonics International:

www.phonicsinternational.com/

The programme is downloadable from the website, the first Unit is free and there is a great deal of help and advice on the site, if you follow that you can't go wrong.

beezmum · 28/04/2010 20:00

MaizieD's advice sounds very good, from experience. I've learned that the main thing is to find a good phonics programme and stick to it and to do it very regularly. Swopping between programmes is a bad idea as there are lots of reasons for certain aspects of the program that are not obvious until later. A good friend of mine was moving her dd to a local prep school. The dd was very behind in reading and the school gave her a 'Dancing Bears' for her to do with her dd at home. She was very happy with it and made stacks of progress. It is produced by www.prometheantrust.org
The Ruth Miskin 'read write inc' product (Oxford University Press) follows all the right principles and I'm sure MaizieD's suggestion must be very good too as its produced by one of the leaders in synthetic phonics teaching.

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