what would you do if you knew someone had lied about where they live

[Feelingsensitive]

We are waiting to hear about primary school places. I strongly suspect that one of the parents has used their inlaws address for the application. DH says to take the moral high ground and not do anything even if we dont get a place and we don't. WWYD?

In defence of my friend who started going to church to try to get her son into the most sought after school in the area (C of E not Catholic) which she is still out of catchment for anyway, she says she likes it and it's a great way to meet other families. Her DH's family are church going.

But yes the system here is a bit rubbish, and I feel nowadays everyone is out for number one (or their family) people will do anything to get what they want in life. A little lie on a school admissions form is nothing to some people.

My DS wants to go the same school as his friend. I just tell him he can't, he's not catholic. His Grandmother used to be.....maybe she could take him to church .

Bacon...it's even more insidious than expecting the children to be religious (at least in that case one could make the spurious argument that they are being given some framework or some such to go with the education). Instead, the poor children are dependent on the their parents being religious. In our case, although dh and I (and ds and both our families) are totally atheist, dd actually happens to have embraced Judiasm (which she is entitled to be by her maternal bloodline), yet she would be denied an equal education in the UK because the rest of us are all heathens.

I was meant to make up my own mind, but never got round to it...

Very interesting thoughts. I agree the systemn is biased anyway so I don't blame people for doing whatever they feel they need too. To the person who said they suspect I woudln't be so bothered if my DD gets a place, I have to say I would which is why I said whatever action I take should happen either way. On one hand I feel it's unfair that someone, whether it be my DD or not, should lose out because of this. However, on the other hand the person concerned doesnt live in the best area and her nearest school is not great which explains why she is doing this. The point about people playing the church game is a fair point.Is it fair to report this person whilst so many others play the church game, which is effectively also lying? Difficult one to answer. I suppose pretending to belive in something in difficult to prove whereas an address isn't.

SofiaAmes really sums it up for me:
"England's disgusting biased system for educating our children is why I moved back to the USA where my children aren't discriminated against because they are atheist and have poor parents who live in the wrong neighborhood."

I will give it more thought before I do anything else. Thansk again.

Excuse typos. DD sitting on my lap.

Sofia's post only applies to faith schools though - plenty of other state schools to choose from.

Turning the other cheek when you know that this abuse is going on simply perpetuates it. The sort of people who would do this rely on other people not saying or doing anything, and it does impact on the children in the class. It means that the class sizes are bigger, or that resources that could be spent on learning support or whatever are being spent on children that shouldn't be in the class in the first place. It may also mean that a child who does deserve a place doesn't get in, and has to go to a school miles away where it doesn't know anyone. It may also mean that the family/ies affected may have to face a nightmare in terms of getting that child to one school and a sibling to another....it goes on and on.

I would report them
If they have done nothing wrong then they have nothing to worry about

And (just to be controversial) I would dispute whether people who fake religious belief are in quite the same league as those who pretend to live at grandma's house.

The admissions criteria for faith schools (well, the C of E schools that I know, anyway) are all about regular attendance at church. Unfortunately (or not, according to your POV), there is no way of devising a rigorous, objective and testable criterion to measure someone's religious faith or committedness. So attending church for the requisite period of time meets the requirements of the admissions criteria, however one might feel about the ethics of going to church simply to get a priest's reference for school admission. Living in one place and pretending to live in another is never going to fulfil the school's admissions criteria. Actually miving house, on the other hand, would.

Maisie, unfortunately in many areas, there are not plenty of other state schools to choose from. Where we lived in London, the only decent schools were faith based. Granted there were plenty of faiths to choose from, but there was not an atheist school to choose from.

StillCrazy, I agree that it is easier to show that someone has faked their address than their religious faith, but that doesn't make address faking more egregious or immoral than faith faking. Hence back to my original response (which I'm thrilled to see that FeelingSensitive has agreed with), which was to say that if someone is going to take it upon themselves to report people because they are so offended by the immorality of it, then they should report them for both types of cheating because both are equally immoral (even if not equally enforceable).

Sofia - I hear what you're saying, and agree up to a point.

But the point I was making is that what the system requires - and what the LEA ought to be checking - is that school places are allocated according to the published admissions criteria. Faking an address is in breach of any criteria relating to distance from home to school. As faith school's criteria are (AFAIK) about church attendance rather than the sincerity of religious belief, trotting along to church for the requisite period of time fulfils the admissions criteria. However objectionable one might or might not find it, there's therefore nothing for the LEA to investigate, even if the matter is reported.

How would anyone design a criterion that was about sincere belief rather than church attendance? Until such time as they do, then I think one has to accept that attending church without any religious belief is on a par with moving house to get into the school's catchment area - ie doing what needs to be done to comply with the school's admissions criteria. I don't much like it either.

I think faking relegion and giving a false address are both dishonest ways of obtaining a school place. The fact that its more difficult to prove the former is another issue entirely. I live in London and round here faith and wealth dictate whether your child gets a good education. Hardly fair is it? We are fortunate to live in a nice area but you don't have to go far to find deprived areas. The person who I beleive has lied lives in one of these areas. I am lucky in that if we don't get our first choice school our second choice is OK. Whereas if this lady has lied its because her nearest schools are not good. Stupid system.

There are plenty of other areas in the UK where faith schools are not the only option for good state education, fortunately. I don't live in London thankfully, so can't comment on that city, but it's a bit much to say "England's disgusting biased system for educating our children is why I moved back to the USA where my children aren't discriminated against because they are atheist and have poor parents who live in the wrong neighborhood." when it's not applicable to the majority of the UK.

Maisie, although in terms of London, I was referring to my own personal experience. With regard to the rest of England (I do not include the rest of the UK in this judgement), I am basing my opinion on the anecdotal evidence given my many many mumsnetters. Perhaps they are an unrepresentative segment of the English population, and in fact a poor, atheist can obtain an excellent education for their child anywhere in England. If so, I would be delighted to be corrected. And in fact, (since I had to leave my dh in the UK to pursue an education for my dc's) would be thrilled if anyone could tell me where in Leeds (where my dh is attending uni) I could live that is not expensive and where there is an excellent non-faith based school that would provide a good enough education for my ds who is gifted, but has learning difficulties and my dd who is just gifted.

I would call the local authority if i thought it might affect you getting a place. how about this one - at my DS's school they give priority to nursery kids - a family rented a house for a year got a nursery place, and now have moved away - they'll give him a reception place but that doesn't sound fair either.

but it might be hard to pull off using inlaws address. we have moved in the last 2 years (they know this because i think they can access council records like council tax bills, and so i needed to provide:

a) evidence we'd sold our house
b) our tenancy agreement

if i wanted to use my parents in law address it might be easier as i have the same initial as my MIL and DH has the same initial as his dad - and we have the same surname.

re: faith schools - many faith schools specify church attendance etc which is hard to fake as you are either there or not.

JFS (jewish secondary school in london) recently LOST in the supreme court as they wanted admissions to be based on whether the children were jewish. but they lost and faith for the purposes of state faith school entrance is to be determined by religious practise only. Not only that the school has taken legal advice and the practise based test has to use criteria that can be easily measured like service attendance.

Religious beliefs can be faked. The sort of religious practise faith schools are allowed to ask for can't be faked (unless you have willing vicar who is prepared to lie and say you have been to church when you haven't)

Have read this thread with interest as Im in exactly the same boat only the mother in question has had no qualms about telling anyone who is interested including me, that she's falsified the admission form by giving her parents address instead of hers. I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place in that I know Ill worry that it will somehow come back on me if I report it (Im not confrontational and prefer to let people get on with their own business) but also feel that this is wrong and the school places should go to the correctly located children. You have my sympathies Sensitive!

Sofia, you are right. And where I live it's CoE or nothing. Crucifix anyone?

Not all religious faith schools require only attendance though. Catholic schools have got more stringent requirements (well, at least in my area).

For the Nursery/Primary schools: parents are required to demonstrate that they are practising catholics, (i.e. provide evidence of their baptism, 1st holy communion and confirmation certificates).The kid(s) must be baptised before they reach 1yr old - otherwise questions are asked and it looks a bit "iffy"

It gets even more difficult when applying for the secondary school: Parents must provide evidence that:

1. The child is currently attending the local catholic primary school
2. The child has received their 1st Holy Communion (certificate reqd),
3. Parents and child attend mass regularly (parish priest to confirm)and
4. Parents need to prove that they and their dc participate fully in their parish activities!
5. Oh, and the child and parents MUST live in the catchment area

These are all fine for genuine practising catholic parents - wouldn't this be a lot of hassle for those pretending to be catholics?

Despite all of the above, there were nearly 900 applicants for 150 places! An average of 6 applicants per place

IMO, I think it's the government's responsibility to ensure that all state schools (nursery/primary/secondary) are of such good standards that parents won't have to lie/fake addresses/ religion to get into good schools of their choice .

Anyway, that's me and rant over!

Sofia - I meant the UK, not just England. However, I can appreciate that you can only talk specifically about schools in London. There are excellent state schools all over the UK - it's a shame that you have had this experience, but it's certainly not true that the only options are faith schools or sub-standard state ones.

If it might affect your DC getting a place then you must report it BEFORE places are allocated.Many years ago i worked in an LEA admissions office and certainly then, it was nigh on impossible to withdraw a place once it had been offered. For one thing the parent has to be proved to have filled the form in with intent to deceive rather than just being careless or not reading the notes properly.The parent will just turn round and say they didn't read the instructions on the form .For another if the parents fight in court it costs the LEA a lot of money which could be spent in a thousand better ways.