Is this too harsh for a 9yr old?

[MumGoneCrazy]

We had parents evening today and DS's teacher said he is brilliant at maths, he's on the top table and is the best at fractions, he's doing very well in all the other topics (history, art, science and geography) but is not to good at english.

He understands it, can read very well, but he lacks concentration when writing and makes many mistakes resulting in half a page of crossing out. His handwriting is terrible, i can only just make out what he has written, sometimes having to ask him what it says and he then sometimes has to look at it very closely.

He's very talkative, nosy and doesnt listen...he's the same at home.
He also has pretty bad memory when it comes to the simple things, he would walk out of the house in the mornings with unbrushed hair and teeth and unwashed face if we didnt check him before he left. He regularly forgets to bring his books and homework home on a friday and then forgets to take them back on a monday if he does remember, thats if he's done his homework despite loads of reminders. Its the same with his PE kit as well.

His teacher has put him on a table on his own for most of his lessons due to his behaviour, he has been quite rude to her, back answering, refusing to do work and messing around, she caught trying to cut his finger with some scissors.

He's very boisterious (sp??) and is often taken in at breaktime due to knocking people over in the yard and being to rough although he ALWAYS claims it wasn't him, it was someone bumping him.

He has worn out 4 pairs of trainers in the past 6-8months due to running around the yard and scuffing them, he has no pride in his belongings or appearance.

He's nearly 10 and will be going to secondary school in a yr and half and we've been trying to teach him responability but its not working, we have 4DC and it seems that we're spending half our time telling/reminding DS to do stuff that should be automatic by now.

After the meeting we came home and told DS that from now as soon as he finishes school he is to sit down do his homework and read his book and that every day we'll be giving him our own homework...he has to copy out a paragraph from a book and then write out sentences that we tell him without mistakes, if he makes mistakes he has to start again.

DS replied saying that we are too harsh and thats too much for him before having a tantrum saying he's not doing it....So is it too harsh?

What can i do to help him with his writing, memory all while teaching him responability and to do things for himself?

Sorry for the long post TIA

Personally I do think it's too harsh! He's a 9-year-old boy who is cooped up for much of the day in a classroom where he's been separated from everyone else because of how he interracts and then, when he gets outside to burn off his energy he's sent back in because he's knocking others over...

If he were in my class (I teach Y5/6) I would be having a word with the SENCo and asking for him to be assessed for things such as dyspraxia. I would have already put in place a pastoral support plan that would specify targets for him related to his behaviour and rewards for achieving them.

Given his lack of organisational skills I would provide him with a timetable that stated very clearly the equipment he needs for each day/lesson (I actually do this for the whole class in September and send them home so parents know too and can reinforce independent organisation without having to second-guess). I would also use a visual timetable in class and make sure he was sitting where he could see the clock so he can keep track of the day.

Whilst I'd be thrilled to have such supportive parents of a tricky child in my class I'd probaby advise them to get him doing something active after school, not more school work, especially if it's such a trial for him. I'd try and get him to take up dance, capoeira, swimming (with a club, so structured), athletics or a martial art so his physical energy could be harnessed.

I honestly don't think that making him copy out sentences without mistakes is going to help him improve! I wouldn't set this as work for my class as I don't really see the point. If he needs to improve his handwriting then maybe wait until he's been assessed and seek advice as to an appropriate programme that he could use at home but that will support him rather than bore him to tears... sorry! At home you could make a timetable (or he could with you using Excel?) which makes it clear exactly what he needs to get ready - be very specific e.g. put bookbag in kitchen, get out homework book and show Mum/Dad this week's homework etc. If you laminate the timetable and use a whiteboard pen he could tick off each point as he does them on a daily basis. Some children do need to be taught how to organise themselves and giving them the skills is more useful than punishing them for something they haven't picked up - we wouldn't punish a child who had never had piano lessons if s/he couldn't play an Eb minor scale beautifully....

It must be frustrating for you but I am with your son - teach him the skills he needs, fill his spare time with something structured but physical and, above all, get him assessed! Good luck.

SE13Mummy - Thank you i can see what you mean when you say that making him do more work after school probably wouldn't help.

With regards to the after school activities he used to do dance but got bored and wouldn't go after about 4 lessons, he is now in an after school football club but is showing signs of tiring of that too.

We've had the same routine since he started school at 4, his books and homework have always been put in the same place, easy to get to and easy to notice (on dining table in living room), he has a time table from school stating which lessons he has, on what days he needs his PE kit and which kit to take but its still like they've never existed before.

yes, much too harsh!!! Getting him to copy out a paragraph without mistakes sounds positively victorian!

The forgetting to brush hair/teeth etc is universal, so I think you just need to accept that. Either that or give him a 'must do' list in the morning. But having to remind children is a fact of life!

My mum used to do to me what you are thinking of doing...extra homework etc. She would make me write something out & she would check it. I once wrote it using 'a' instead of the 'normal' a and she tore it up and made me write it again, and again....until she was satisfied that it was right.

It was soul destroying. This went on for a while until my stepfather put a stop to it, because all is did was make me cry & lose confidence in myself. I still remember how I felt, writing through tears, which meant I had to start again as the words were smudged. It was humiliating and painful.

I think adding to his homework will do more harm than good, tbh.

I think it's far too harsh ans agree with SE13 mummy about speaking to the SENCO.

I think it is too harsh as well. Agree with differentnameforthis that teeth brushing, scruffiness etc. is normal, because he doesn't consider these type of things as being important. He sounds a bit of a character like William Brown in the Just William books.

I think he is possibly pulling a fast one by consistently forgetting to bring his books and homework back on Fridays, thus avoiding the need to do any bothersome homework. . Maybe there could be some sort of incentive for him to make him remember.

I think you will need to keep a close eye on whether he is doing his homework and maybe check his bag in the morning to make sure he has got everything. I wouldn't give him any extra writing or force him to read a book. But I would try to work with him on improving his handwriting by working with him to write out a few sentences most evenings.

Sorry i didnt mean that i would keep him there until every word was perfect, at the moment every other word is crossed out and we thought that maybe practicing at home might result in not so many mistakes IYKWIM

I would never purposely make him cry or go on at him if he was quite cearly upset

I just want him to understand that he needs to think about what he is about to write before putting pen to paper. He gets upset that most of his homework is sent back with comments on it about his handwriting being messy and that it could be neater.

I would love for him to come home with a smile on his face while waving his english homework instead of just moping in and putting it straight away

He needs help with how he feels about stuff not the English. Is that not obvious?

Most 10 year olds don't try and cut themselves with scissors and take no pride in themselves...

sorry 9yr olds

I remember being forced to write and write. It didn't improve my writing in any way, it just made me resent writing at all. By 12, my writing was awful and I could never do more than print.

My dd2 is having similar trouble, although younger than your ds. I'm just trying to give her a little work to do that she enjoys, about topics she enjoys. Writing one sentence well that she enjoys is SO much more productive than writing paragraphs from a book.

I think you're being far too harsh. Sorry. You should be helping him to feel enthusiastic and positive and finding the good in what he can do, rather than forcing him like this which really won't achieve much other than resentment.

He sounds a little like my son last year. He is dyslexic (although now an excellent reader) and has major difficulties with his handwriting and very poor organisational skills. He also has some social and emotional difficulties, and has problems in thinking about consequences, so often does stupid things (which he then regrets). Last year he was very frustrated and angry (mainly because we moved and he lost his friends and found it very difficult making new ones), and his behaviour at school was a real problem. What has really helped was his teacher putting him on a reward system, which has really turned him around this year.

I think he will always be disorganised, and will also probably move to using a computer for his writing, although we are keen to persevere because not being able to write legibly at all is a real handicap I think.

So, my questions would be has your ds always been like this, in which case what strategies has the school tried, what referrals have been made (OT is the one for handwriting), and what is their action plan or is this new, in which case you need to find out what is troubling your son, because he doesn't sound very happy.

Re. your strategy otherwise, we do the structured reading and homework, but after he has had free time and a bit of a run about. We've also found that after school sports makes a big difference (ds likes sports that involve contact and where the action is fast and competitive, but with breaks - his stamina isn't great) as they seem to even out his temper a bit.

Re. the appearance thing, well that sounds totally normal! The trainers sounds a little like he hasn't got anyone to play with, again might be a sign of social problems (many children avoid kids who seem out of control).

Agree with others that the writing for the sake of writing does appear quite harsh, but our ds would also throw strops about this sort of thing, although then he'd buckle down, again rewards work quite well with him, especially if there is an element of competition. If you are going to go down this route it would make more sense to use a handwriting practice book or find a tutor, as he may have very genuine problems with writing. There are also various grips and specially shaped pens/pencils, if it's a grip problem.

Your ds sounds a lot like mine (also 9) although mine is so tiny compared to his classmates he'd never be accused of knocking anyone over. I suspect that the "cutting" himself with the scissors was daydreaming experiments. My ds has no concept of what is dangerous or harmful. That doesn't mean he is fearless, he just doesn't have an ability to foresee what might hurt him (ie cutting his finger with scissors). My ds is an avid reader, but has had a terrible terrible struggle with writing from day one. When he was in 2nd grade (2 years ago...we're in usa) after a particularly gruesome battle of wills with his teacher (well actually he didn't realize he was partaking in a battle...she ranted at the top of her lungs and he daydreamed), I said that if he taught himself how to touch type (bbc has great program for kids to do so), I would make it ok with his teacher for him to type all his writing assignments. This has really been his (our) salvation. Now he occasionally hand writes his rough draft, but mostly types it and all his final drafts are type written. He is an accomplished user of spell check and can find a synonym for anything on dictionary.com (has been tested as having the vocabulary of a 16 year old). He doesn't mind doing writing assignments and generally does two or three times what he is expected to do. His teacher last year used to battle with him in the classroom and try to make him handwrite assignments and then complain to me that he would take forever. I just kept saying...send them home and he'll complete them lickety split on the computer. In contrast, his teacher this year has been letting him do in class assignments whenever possible on the classroom computer and otherwise sending the work home. He has gotten top grades on all his writing assignments. What a contrast from 2 years ago when he was getting below average on all of them.

All of this is to say, that you might want to consider that your ds truly does have a hard time with the physical act of writing (this is not an unheard of issue with boys) and give him instead a way to work around it rather than trying to force something that he just can't do right now.

I also recommend reading Mel Levine's books "The Myth of Laziness" and "A Mind at a Time" which describe children like yours and mine and how to help them.

Good luck, your ds sounds fantastic and will probably go on to do great things if you help him develop the tools to help himself.

My 9yo also very similar to yours in some ways. Completely away with the fairies, quite capable of going to school with his trousers on back to front or even inside out, suppose I should be grateful that they're not upside down.

Handwriting particularly awful, though he does have a disability that explains that.

No trouble with rudeness at school so far, but I do find that he gets very defiant at home and deliberately does things more badly than he has too. I think he is simply very sensitive about the fact that he can't do things as well as his mates, so he messes around so that noone will find out how badly he does when he's really trying iyswim.

I have a 10yo ds and your little boy sounds absolutely normal

He's obviously doing incredibly well at school, and as other posters said I'd focus on this and what he CAN do, not what he can't do. Praise him for his maths, for instance. We all have weak points, and for some (adults as well as children) writing out loads of stuff isn't just that interesting. Normal.

It's still normal to be rather disorganised at this age and even into first year or so of secondary -it does click eventually. Doing homework when you first get in is a good discipline and good way to get it out of way before they get stuck into anything else like the games console , but please don't give him any extra of your own because that will make him focus on his 'bad' points, feel inadequate and generate resentful behaviour.

Thank you all esp nooka and grungeblobprimpants (love the name ) you've given me a lot to think about.

The extra work was just an idea we hadnt actually done it yet, i thought i would ask the wise women of MN first

I didnt do well in school, i bunked off school, hardly ever did my homwork or course and got pregnant at 15 so i didnt even finish secondary school and was only allowed to sit my maths, english, science and child development GCSE Exams, i was told by the teachers that there was no way i'd get a pass in any of them so there would be not point in allowing me to do them

I got -

C in Maths
D in English
2 D's in science
and a F in child development

I have no other qualifacations and just want my son to want to do better and get more out of life than what i did.

The first thing you have got to remember is Your Son Is Not You. It's a shame that you had the school experience you did, but it's not really relevant to his experience. Being disorganised at age 9 is absolutely no sign that you're going to be going off the rails at age 15. But he is far more likely to go off the rails if he doesn't feel good about himself, so try to keep his very real achievements in view. He is doing well in most subjects by the sounds of it. Being disorganised is normal for his age, so I'd ignore that. Rudeness to teachers of course not so good, but hopefully the school will deal with that.