Help, my daughter pooing herself isn't going down too well at school!!

[mummyloveslucy]

Hi, my daughter is in reception but has been in the schools nursery since she was two. She has a speech disorder and some general developmental delays. She is still regulary pooing herself, although she usually holds it in at school.
Recently though, she's been pooing herself at school quite regulary. She did on a school trip, during P.E and today, she did it twice. The teacher seemed a bit concerned and said she'd had words with her and made her clean herself up, even though she was asking for help,which I thought was a bit harsh.
I've tried everything to stop her doing it all the time. I just don't understand why she does it. She won't tell you either when she's done it, she'll just sit in it. She don't like being cleaned. I feel like we've tried everything and now it's becoming a bit desperate as I don't want it to effect her schooling. She told me today that the teacher was angry with her. I don't want the teacher to think we haven't bothered to train her or that we're too soft.
I'd be very greatful for any advice.

We got quite desperate training dd to poo in the toilet in time for school. I bought a box of mixed chocolates and she got to choose one from the box if she pooed in the toilet (dd adores chocolate). I never planned to bribe with sweets, but they are small treats and we were desperate. She's in reception, and still gets a treat from the box after a poo. Would something like this motivate your dd?

At dd's state school teachers don't help cleaning up poo - dcs must do it themselves or they call the parent. I do sympathise - I was VERY anxious about this.

It didn't eliminate (pun not intended!) the problem for us entirely, but what reduced it a lot was making sure that ds sat on the loo half an hour after breakfast, without fail, every single day. If we knew that he'd not been the day before we wouldn't leave until he'd had a poo. we explained this to the teacher so as not to get into trouble for being a little late at times.
We still have to monitor ds's bowel habits, albeit less obsessively, and he's 9! But this is because if we don't then he gets constipated and has terrible abdominal pains.
I hate this poo-fixation. I'm generally a very laissez faire kinda gal, and was very relaxed about potty training, which was a breeze (the poo problem arose at least 18 months after we ditched nappies, perhaps longer). But needs must I guess. It was the only thing that worked for us, basically.

Ds used to go at least 3 times a day, sometimes double that. Like you I didn't think it could be constipation. The Paed suggested giving ds some lactulose. He has two spoonfuls in the morning and the same again at night. By the second or third day ds only needed to go once a day and life got a lot easier for all of us.

My ds1 was very like your daughter at the same age, he is now 18 and still has moderate learning difficulties. All the other advice is so great, all I wanted to say is I am sure she will eventually grow out of it. With my son it gradually become less and less frequent and by year 2 was only occasional (usually when something particularly stressful happened). Good luck, the people at school sound lovely BTW

I'm another that thinks you should treat this as constipation or an enlarged bowel.

One sachet of movicol is nothing if she has an long term problem - all it does is make the 'new' poo into liquid which runs round the obstruction. My dd was pooing large poos a couple of times a day and soiling her pants a couple of times as well - we were told it was behavioural by GPs. Took her to a private gastroenterologist after a couple of years (since she we moved her from a wonderful helpful understanding private school who would help her get clean and not make an issue to a state school who would let her fester in filth and then shout at her for 'being a baby' - rubbish that state schools cope with this sort of thing better!!!).
Gastro bloke did an x-ray and it was obvious that her bowel was totally stretched and full of poo..she didn't have any muscle tone in her bowel so it just filled up and poo came out with gravity.
She's been on movicol for over 6 months, we upped it to 4 sachets a day for several weeks (the first week was liquid poo, then as the older poo started shifting she had more normal poos), and is now slowly reducing the number of sachets. Our gastro bloke was very good in explaining how you have to go through the liquid phase and keep going in order to clear the bowel.

I do think you ought to take her to your GP though.I wish I had done that much sooner with my DD.Fortunately in our case the school were really really good.
The teacher should not have shouted at your DD.Would she think it ok to shout at a child in a wheelchair for not being able to walk ?

She didn't shout at her!!

She was just very matter of fact and made her clean herself up. I think my daughter was upset, because she's used to being cleaned up by someone else. The teacher had said to her that she must go streight to the toilet if she needs to go.

I will carry on with the movicol, I didn't realise how it worked. I thought that if she was having loose bowels then it obviously wasn't constipation. No one explained to me how it works, so thank you Millarkie. Even when I told the consultant I'd stopped giving it to her and why, she didn't explain that this was normal and to carry on.

Mummyloveslucy - the first doctor who prescribed Movicol for our dd also didn't tell us how it worked and also recommended one sachet. After a couple of days of liquid poo we also assumed that meant that she wasn't constipated so we stopped. And then poor dd suffered for another 6 months (and 2 other GP appointments where we were told it was psychological) until we took her to the private Gastroenterologist.
If you can get her to a specialist gastro consultant I would really recommend it - there are not that many in the UK and obviously it costs, but they will do the right tests to prove whether it's constipation/megacolon/bowel inflammation etc. Our gastro bloke said that in his opinion after the age of 5 it is highly unusual to find a child with poo problems where there is no physical problem.

My son had constipation problems from the moment he began on solid food. I still think it was because he didn't like the sensations and held it as long as possible. He's now nearly 6 and we've had him on Movicol for nearly 2 years, on a very low maintenance dose, ie one sachet every 3-4 days. He's now at the stage where he's fine about going to the toilet as long as the stool is not too hard, and can clean himself etc. I did forget to give it to him at one point for about 2 weeks, and it was only at the end of this time that he began to find it harder to go. I really think he's growing out of his problem (and it's happened to others in my family).

My son has DD and this was not his problem but I know of another mum with a little girl with a similar problem to Mumloveslucy. There were psychological reasons no doubt, however I do know how that mum contributed to the problem. More on that later.

I sympathize though because my son loses track of time in the toilet and we have been teaching him not to use other people's toilets for long periods of time to no avail. He also continually forgets to flush. It isn't polite and it isn't normal. People are repulsed and have no sympathy for anything surrounding the pooh function once children start school. Sorry but there comes a time when people expect children to grow out of anti social behavior or behavior that is a bit odd.

Back to my friend. She had more embarrassment over her daughters problem than her daughter did. I told her that she should never go home early when out because her daughter had poohed. She should actually calmly tell her daughter that she would prefer her d to sit a little away from others due to the smell. Definitely not take her into her arms as if nothing has happened. If anyone asks about the smell simply say she has a problem and don't discuss it any further. If Mum did bring changes of pants and cleaning wipes this is to teach her child in the toilet area to do it herself. This is essential. It should always be handled in a calm matter of fact way, no emotional blackmail or emotion outbursts. It is the child's problem and not the parents. My friend did not listen to this advice and what happens then is that the pay back to the child means that it can be used as a way of manipulating the parent for attention in the future. I sympathize but, whether children can help it or not, some things have to be taught. Don't sweat the small stuff but poohing problems are gross.

Lots to.

Saying that poo issues are gross is just awful. DC's with encoparesis have a MEDICAL ISSUE.

It is unhelpful comments like that that make it worse for parents that are trying to cope with these issues.

How could you tell a parent to withhold attention from a child because of a MEDICAL ISSUE they have? Would you tell a parent of a child with Downs Syndrome to ignore their child because of issues caused by their medical issue? No? Then you shouldn't be telling anyone to ignore their DC for having 'poo issues'. This problem has a medical name - encoparesis.

So kindly keep your unhelpful comments to yourself. And that was me being as polite as I can be, as the parent of an almost 9yo that is still soiling due to encoparesis. What I actually feel like saying in response to your comments involves a few 'F' words, and when you get there, some more 'F' words. But I shall keep it polite. For once.

I would advise seeing the incontinence clinic if your PCT have one. Mine don't. And my PCT refuse to prescribe Movicol, instead telling you to buy it OTC. Which becomes very expensive, prohibitively so, if they are on 4 sachets a day.

Could you teach a DC with Autism not to have Autism? Could you teach a DC with life threatening allergies to not be allergic? No? Then how can you teach a MEDICAL ISSUE out of a child?!

This thread is from 2009!

I am not sure quite why this thread has been brought up. As I understood Mumloveslucy and her daughter have moved on. Lucy was home educated for a while and has returned to state education this september. (2012)

Lucy has special needs (speech and language, possibly dyspraxia/ autism I am not sure exactly) and her toileting issues are not her fault.

I was hoping that this thread would contain some good news about Lucy. Mumloveslucy, I hope that Lucy is happy in her new school and everything is going well.

Lotstoshare, what did you hope to achieve bringing up an old thread?

My DS (4) has soiling and constipation and has just started reception. He has no other medical issues or developmental delay.

I told the school as soon as we got his place in April and they couldn't have been more helpful. They arranged a meeting with an advisor from the county council who specialises in children who soil to sort out a toiletting plan for him. He has been on Movicol since he was 2 and was on lactulose before that.

His toiletting plan says that he should sit on the toilet for 5 mins about 20 mins after he has eaten something as eating triggers the reflex to poo. We have been a bit hit and miss with this but if it is timed just right he does go in the right place but most times he still soils. The school are doing their best to get him to go but at lunchtimes the 5 mins are not happening. He has had 2 large accidents at school so far. The school have been brilliant at cleaning him up. I send him with wipes and spare clothes. The school's policy is not to call in a parent to clean the child as it's not fair to make a child sit in his own excrement while waiting, who knows how long a parent might take to arrive, especially if they work.

We are due for a review at the GP next month as his repeat prescription has run out and I think I'm going to be asking for a referral (again, was refused last time!!) as I'm not convinced we're getting anywhere and after reading other posts on here I'm not sure he's on a big enough dose of Movicol (1-2 sachets daily, have been up to 8 daily when really bad). For those who've been to a consultant, how often do they say they should be pooing - daily, couple of times a week or doesn't it matter as long as it's soft? We're keeping a diary to see if we can see a pattern now.

One thing the lady from the council did say was that a toiletting plan like we have won't work if the child is still constipated. This is what makes me wonder if we're on the right dose of movicol as we've been doing the plan since end of April and he's probably only done half a dozen poos on the loo.

DS also isn't at all bothered when he soils and doesn't say anything, I'm the one who is embarassed! I took the TA who cleaned him up last week some flowers. He'd had a really good clear out and it couldn't have been a nice job to deal with it! Our toiletting plan says the child should be encouraged to help clean himself up, DS isn't always co-operative with this!

This is a very common problem, there's another child in my DS's class who soiled last week too. The council lady said 1 in 30 children this age have a problem.

Didn't notice this was a zombie thread.

I just got rather annoyed at Lotsto's assertion that 'poo issues' were disgusting, and her 'advice' to people dealing with it.

I am glad MumtoLucy's DD is doing better, it sounds like her DD has a similar combination of issues as my DS2, and I wish her well.

And I hope she ignores Lotsto, and doesn't let it rile her like I did. again.

I am so sorry to hear it. I cannot tell you any advice, because I did not have this problem with my child, but I would like to tell you a couple of word about the school. Is it really a private school? Are you paying for them? Then go to the head and tell him or her how the class teacher dealt with your daughter and make it clear that is not right. What they think they could be angry with a small child because these things. If I were you I would be crossed with them. If it would happen with my son (in a state school, where I do not pay money) I would go into the head with the class teacher and I would explain them (in not a nice way) what is their job and they chosen this career. They should help your daughter to settle in and make her happy and help her learn thing not being angry with her. I could continue this for pages and pages, because I am VERY ANGRY now (I wish I could speak with this teacher).

Go into the school and sort it out (because you love your child and would like her to be happy in the school), so your child should not have this "angry teacher" experience again, because she does not deserve it.