So, you take the ten 'cleverest' children from Year 2 in a community school...

[PoptyPing]

... and you send them home with letters in their book bags saying that, because they've 'been identified as being above average ability', they're being invited to join a 'Thinking Club' after school, at which they will be undertaking various, um, thinky activities.

And then the other parents get wind of this and people start complaining, and other parents are pissed off and hurt, and some of the children work out what's going on and are very upset not to have been asked.

WHat do you reckon to this then? And yes, this is my daughter's year - but I'm not telling you which side of the fence we're on until you tell me what you think!

That's interesting Hula. Does the money come direct from the LEA for G&T or something like that?

It depends.

The finding for my support group comes externally. I am not sure on the specifics as I am not involved in that sides of things. Last year we have funding relating to targeting BME/EAL groups who required literacy support - noth the qeakest, but those not ute reaching the mark. The group did have non BME/EAL as well, but they were our main target. This year's funding is not yet fully in place and not sure where it is coming from - again head is sorting that.

I think it is also important that we d not become complacent and thing that it is okay for any group of children in a class to get less attention. ALL children deserve a full and rounded education, where they are all challenged and pushed to meet their own potentials. It is not okay for any group to consistently get less attention than others, and certainly not appropriate for children to be sat waiting every day whilst others work with the teacher.

It all depends on how it's done. When dd was identified as G&T and invited to join the lunchtime club, there wasn't a big hoo ha about it - and in the event, dd decided she couldn't be bothered, because she'd rather spend her lunch hour outside together with whichever friends she chose, rather than just the ones that happened to be in the 10%. So doesn't sound very divisive, activities there if you wanted them, but fairly low key.

Then again, you do hear of schools where G&T children get what must seem like massive rewards, like trips out to museums and things (a lot of which non-G&T children would also be capable of enjoying); I would have felt uncomfortable if that had been the case.

Anyway, I always felt it was the setting for different subjects that made a real difference, not being identified as G&T. It was the setting that affected the work you did.

It's the general slant that they are ABOVE everyone else that is the issue.

My DS1 has dyslexia and has an IQ well above average for his age, is confident with his ideas and can do many other things that other kids his age can't, he is classed as 'special needs' in a hum drum oh dear kind of way by some, whereas I find G&T are elevated beyong the pale as being some sort of superior beings to everyone else.

It just seems so cut and dried, like you have to be one or the other.

You don't see any razamataz of any sort for 'special needs' they are often kept like some dirty little embarresing secret, which I am changing!

My response to some who have looked down upon me and/or DS1 is

Dyslexia is a gift for the brilliant, where as ignorance is a trait of the stupid.

All children are gifted and talented in my very informed opinion!

It's no different to Orchestra, or football. You can't do those clubs unless you can actually do them!

"It just seems so cut and dried, like you have to be one or the other."

Not necessaryt my DS is on the SN register at secondary for Dyslexia but also on the G&T register for science and geography.

My son is on the SEN register at secondary school as he has Aspergers and BSED, he is also on the G&T register for Law. In America, it's called "Twice Gifted"!

Fine - it happened when I was at school and it is a way for clever children to get a bit of scope in their education ..

Shit happens in life - sometimes you aren't chosen or are just not good enough - deal with it!!

bruffin and primary mum - thanks for that good to know about secondary, we are still at primary level, glad to see they have a more detailed approach!

The school have said DS1 is very good at drumming and does he want to have some lessons paid for by the school - yes please!

Shit happens in life true, but you don't have to just suck it up because someone says so, who the fuck are they anyway?

I think I would want to know how the children were chosen. What constiutes clever? I think my DS1's teacher is very obsessed about handwriting for instance. It is obviously an indicator for her of a huge brain whereas to my mind it is an indicator of good fine motor skills.

Of course my DS1 is crap at handwriting .

I remember once PPH laughin abotu G and t
and said something like

" in the old days certain kids were shcolarship kids and htey got extra lessons becuase they were clever, everyone kneow abotu it and it was no big deal"

nwo everyones kids are clever

I'm wondering if the name of the club may have ruffled some more feathers too. "The Thinking Club" suggests that these are the kids who can & do think - the rest of the kids can't & don't think!

Something more subtle would have less inflamatory.

There are a very small number of kids at our school who go to afterschool classes called Extra Maths - it's actually the G&T Maths kids - but who would have known from the name - no suggestion of talent or superiority.

Our school policy is NEVER EVER pick G+T children in KS1, as most mothers (evidenced on MN) think their children are 'bright'.

On reflection I agree wiht those who said it depends on what the school does in general for everyone.

Our school has effectively no open to all afterschool clubs so in my mind it would not be acceptable, if your school has loads then I suppose it's OK

Is it G & T though ? Popty pig said the letter said the children were above average ability . What does that actually mean ? At our primary school I would have thought nearly all the children were above average national ability
And how have they determined ability ? Usually reasoning tests measure 'thinking' ability but they are not normally done til KS2 .Very curious !Keep us posted !

I've just posted on this subject on another thread. In my niece's school they picked one girl and one boy from each class. My niece was chosen, her equally clever best friend wasn't. My sister was embarrassed and relieved that the other mother still spoke to her.

P4C (Philosophy for Children) is fantastic and is used widely in many primary schools. It's good for getting children of all abilities to think more deeply.

At our primary they use it in all classes, but they also have a club for selected students at lunchtime.

Personally I don't really agree with selection/identification of G&T students. I prefer the model where all students/parents are offered the extra opportunities, and they self-select by showing their interest/motivation by signing up and being committed to the activity. (And btw I'm the parent of two very bright boys, but I have seen the damage that 'selection' can do on both sides of the division.)

more about P4C here
this little book says some more about the approach I mentioned.

MrsG, I think you make a good point about the club's name.

hotpotato, I don't actually know how they were chosen, other than that it's something to do with 'raw test data'. will find out more at parents evening I suppose.

bellisima, as you say it's all a question of where they draw the line isn't it? My DD might be right at the 'bottom' of the G&T list/ If they'd chosen to draw the line at 8 kids instead of 9 she might not have been in it and I'd have been

That's very interesting Roisin, thanks

I dunno. I'm not thinky enough to work out which side of the fence I'd be on. I just have to register my pleasure and surprise at the use of 'Poptyping' as a user name. My favourite welsh word ever

"It's the general slant that they are ABOVE everyone else that is the issue.

My DS1 has dyslexia and has an IQ well above average for his age, is confident with his ideas and can do many other things that other kids his age can't, he is classed as 'special needs' in a hum drum oh dear kind of way by some, whereas I find G&T are elevated beyong the pale as being some sort of superior beings to everyone else.'

AAARRRGGGHH!

I have a G+T literacy type who is in the LA set for maths, a stunning artist who can't spell and an amazing thinker who struggles to get anything written down. I have one who is G+T across the board but who struggles with social skills.
If it's OK to support SEN when those children are waaay below average, why isn't it equally OK to support an individual who is G&T?
And yes, I also have a son who is AS and G&T in two areas but struggling with a whole lot of other stuff.
It's unfair to be dismissive of children because they need more than the average diet.
Kurt Vinnegut Jnr wrote a short story called 'Welcome to the Monkey House' detailing a society where everyone was made equal.
Not comfortable reading for many.

Personalised learning (e.g. meeting the educational needs of ALL children) means that lower attaining children get additional support to meet their needs and that the higher attaining ones get extra input to meet theirs.

Our children are already receiving differentiated learning in the classroom anyway whether in terms of the questions they are asked on the carpet, the work they are expected to produce and the tasks they are asked to complete in their books.

More able children have just as much right to be enabled to work to their full potential as those who need extra support.

And it's all relative anyway, I've taught in schools where the 'shining star' in my class wouldn't have stood a chance in another school 5 miles away. Similarly, I hear parents at my son's school complaining that their child is only in the middle set, not realising that they'd be off the scale in my school!

And to notagrannyyet, denying a naturally able child the opportunity to progress will make no difference to the abilities of a less able child - providing they are being supported. There's a limit to how much intervention you can give!

Thank you MrsGravy, it makes me larf every time I see it

crazycat34 Yes I've found that out the hard way. 3 of my 6DC are dyslexic. 1 DS could hardly read when he left primary despite his high IQ, and weekly lessons with the Dyslexia Institue as it was then. He did eventually get a full SEN statement. His natural abilities did ensure he progressed. Now at 24 yrs he has a very well paid job, no debt, and has a mortgage on his first home. For him the primary years were hell. He was thought of as the class dunce by the 'top group' and their mothers. At least then the afterschool football, tennis, etc. was open to everyone.

I don't think it is a bad thing and if my DD wasn't picked I wouldn't be bothered. I think that the kids at the top of their classes don't get enough help, my DD is on a high reading level and reads every night at home, at school she only gets listened to once every 3 weeks yet some of the other kids are listened to twice a week.

At my DD's school they are placed into their classes based on ability. The school doesn't let you know your DC's new teacher until the last day as it causes so many problems.

i spent primary school bored out of my mind and largely ignored.

i am no genius, i was just a very fast learner and well ahead of my peers up to age 16-18 ish.

i still wouldn't have wanted to go to an afternoon 'thinking' club though as after school for me was for swimming club and brownies and other more physical things.

is there not some way to stimulate the G&T kids DURING school hours?