Why do we start reading etc so early in UK?

[Cortina]

Speaking to American and European friends all are shocked and think we are bonkers to start the formal stuff so young.
Beginning to get down to the serious business of reading and writing seems to happen when their children are rising 7.

Apparently Finnish grade 4 children have the highest average reading age internationally - and they don't start until 7.

Appreciate this is going to change any time soon but wonder why have a different philosophy/system in the UK. I have no idea why.

I have been lead to believe that children who can sing many nursery rhymes before going
to school can grasp reading faster than those who can't.
I think I saw it on a basic skills website, discussing their Language and Play project.

That's interesting. Not my experience though. It's possible for a child to be articulate beyond their years get the concept of sounding out but things not clicking into place as per reading.

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Pitch, ours are all taught with phonics, it is standard now isn't it?

Phonics is definitely taught in all the primary schools I know of. Many schools have dedicated phonics sessions every day.

However reading books available in classrooms are not, IME, phonics based especially under the reading band schemes that happen in many primary schools. Real books and scheme books are simply banded accoriding to difficulty, etc. and children chose from them - and are expected to use their phonic knowledge, along with word recognition and picture clues, to read the words in the book.

bruffin, not true, i was in a german school for the first part of the year they started reading and writing and it was exactly the same stuff that dd is doing now at 4... i was 6/7.

as for phonics, dd's class has a pbonics book but the vast majority of the way they learn will still be 'see and say' style learning of words, learning the shapes of lots of words as opposed to sounding them out.

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DailyMailNameChanger Fri 18-Sep-09 12:29:14 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"As for your ds, I cannot comment as I do not know the ins and outs, however, I find it very odd that a teacher would make a 4yo feel stupid for not reading - as most of them don't read at 4, they start learning phonics then but few of them can read more than a few words before the age of 5 in any case."

It wasn't the teacher being mean to him: it was the fact that he had to spend a couple of years working on something he was manifestly unable to do. Wouldn't you feel stupid if you had to go through that?

"As for denying them, well, how do you find out if they would enjoy reading if you do not start them off reading? A 5yo cannot express a wish or otherwise to do or not do something so far outside their own experience!"

So how come so many 5yos do this in countries where formal schooling starts later? You would have to live in a very deprived situation indeed not to be aware that reading is something other people find useful. The written word is everywhere around us- adverts, signs etc; it is perfectly natural to want to know what it means, once you are mature enough.

Cory, your first point, I would say it would depend on how it was handled by all involved but, generally, no. I would expect it to be dealt with so that the child did not feel inadequate.

Your second point, I am not really sure what you are saying TBH.

What I am saying is, you don't have to sit down and formally teach your child reading in order for the child to know that it wants to learn. Most children have some experience of seeing other people read and at 5 are often quite capable of saying 'I want to learn to read', when they are ready to learn.

I am not sure about that, I have not heard of many children going up to their teachers/parents saying "I want to learn to read now". Anyway, we clearly have different experiences so shall we leave it at that?

On theory is that children are taught to read early because once they can read, they can be educated on mass much more easily that if they cannot read. So a class room of readers can be given work to do where as a class room of non-readers would have to be taught in a differently and in a manner that the schools system in the country simply doesn?t have the resources to cope with.

Very cynical know, but it is one theory.

I used to think it's a good thing English children start formal education earlier. I was imagining we'd otherwise have a nation of children sitting at home eating crisps and drinking fruitshoots, playing on the wii, until they're 7.

But actually, talking with people who've done both european and English systems, it turns out there's not really much difference. It's not as if the European children are at home til they're 7, they're at kindergarden places like preschool - and our reception curriculum is pretty play based. They're doing much the same stuff.

My friend has just moved back to Czech Rep. just as her DD was supposed to go into year 1 - and now she's over there, she's back at sort of preschool. Her education seems to be continuing as it would have been here.

Pitchounette Chiff and Bip is phonics based. I think the whole country's doing it.

My dds (Y1) are learning that way. Interestingly, when my son was in KS1 reading schemes were frowned upon, as was phonics- he refused to read at all all through Reception and Yr 1- no idea why, but he was very resistant.

Then he started to read in year 2 (again, no idea why-inspirational teacher? bored of resisting?-any rate it was definitely his choice) and ever since he's read and read and read for pleasure.

Although my dds are coping well with phonics, and meeting their targets now I'll be interested to see if they're reading with the same enthusiasm as my ds when they're 12.

DailyMailNameChanger Fri 18-Sep-09 16:27:48 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

I am not sure about that, I have not heard of many children going up to their teachers/parents saying "I want to learn to read now".

well considering that most children in this country start at 4 at an age when relatively few are ready, that is not so surprising

more common in countries where they start later- which is where I have a bit of experience

but you quite often see posts on MN where children have more or less taught themselves, just asking a few questions about the alphabet

The UK is not too bad. Now the French are totally bonkers! They expect 5yr olds to write neatly in between lines, know all the times tables, read at least 2 books a week by themselves!
And every night have at least an hour's homework.
My friend has just come back from France (lived out there for 3yrs) and she is shocked by how little we do here!

DS was rising 6 when we moved back to the UK and he started Reception in the last 6 weeks of the academic year having had no previous formal reading/writing instruction. He had spent the previous 3 years in a German speaking Kindergarten.
On joining Year 1 he had almost caught up with his peers!

Realise this comment is a little late and erm, actually irrelevant to the general discussion - but I thought Finnish was quite a tricky language? (doesn't Finnish grammar have lots of complicated cases?)

dailymail... ds1 is 3 and has asked me exaxctly that... he's self taught himself the alphabet and now wants to learn how to read whole words

a child can and will ask if they're interested, most just aren't interested at a young age

SkivingViking Fri 18-Sep-09 17:23:04 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"Realise this comment is a little late and erm, actually irrelevant to the general discussion - but I thought Finnish was quite a tricky language? (doesn't Finnish grammar have lots of complicated cases?)"

Finnish is difficult for foreigners to learn because of the complicated grammar, but then as a native speaker you don't sit down and learn the cases in school before you can speak correctly; you learn by listening to people around you that some sentences just sound odd.

English children don't have to wait until they learn to read to be able to tell the difference between 'horse' and 'horses' or between "go" and "went".

Finnish spelling is very regular and that is something that most of us do learn at school.

By preciouslillywhite on Fri 18-Sep-09 16:44:56
Pitchounette Chiff and Bip is phonics based. I think the whole country's doing it.

The Biff & Chip books are NOT phonics based (the only phonics part are their names).
The scheme is firmly of the Look & Say category!
and the whole country aren't doing it ... wouldn't have them anywhere near my reception class.

where are you , mrz? Can you get a three bed house for less than 300 grand?

...I thought they were a mix of phonics and so called tricky words...

much less than £300k

"But currently we have a system where 4 yos are made to feel a failure if they cannot understand the alphabet or do not have the motor skills to hold a pen correctly."

Absolutely Cory.