Pedants this way please - A whinge about the way Jolly Phonics.

[foxytocin]

Righty. Maybe IABU. I went to dd's parents' meeting at reception where the reading programme, Jolly Phonics and some other one were discussed.

They showed the JP Dvd. on the DVD they said

the letter 't', 'r' 'f' were sounded out as 'teh' 'reh' 'feh'

so fret would be spelt 'feh' 'reh' 'e' 'teh'

It has always annoyed me when I hear children sounding out words as those sounds are 'pure' sounds. they do not have a 'schwa' in them yet even the instructional DVD teaches them that way.

kids still learn to read write and spell I know but it is jolly annoying to listen to them done wrong.

That was about the whole words recommendation btw!

It's mad, isn't it?
The whole point of Jolly Phonics is to use the pure sounds such as in the CD of songs and the sounds on the DVD and the bloody snake, bee, mouse, computer get it wrong in the drama. Waste of time.

Getting there

What is interesting is that SALTs are the peopel who really understand the anomalies between letters and sound correspondence better than most (so much so that we use a whole different alphabet to transcribe sounds heard) and yet often advocate use of picture prompts and whole word reading strategies to struggling kids, despite there being research to show it often doesn't help to make a child an effective reader.

But they probably don't know about the research and, as an immediately effective short term strategy, whole word/picture supported reading works fast and may be a perferabel option in view of fact that very few professionals understand how to teach reading to children who need specialised support.

The fact is, most able kids learn in spite of how they are taught , not because of it. so it means people think techniques are effective becasue most kids get by, and then blame the ones that don't by saying problem within them ,not with teaching method.

Remeber the mantra populr in behavioural circles:

If the pupil hasn't learnt, the teacher hasn't taught.

My ds has autistic traits (possible AS) and he began to read by memorising whole words. He only got so far with this though as he's dyslexic, so he had to learn phonetically. He absolutely hated this approach but it worked (eventually!)

I'm really interested in this alleged ballsing up of Phonics sounds in JP. is it really so??

Corn, yes, understood what you were referring to. Bloody useless eh?

I think the assumption is that children with autism with visual learning and fantastic memories pick up the words faster as whole words.

I have no idea if this is true but I can say wih certainty that my ds can manage phonics and so it would be silly to not do it that way for reasons of assumption. I would also suggest (without being an expert in autism) that if someone has a skill that is lacking you get them to practice, not change the way of learning to a less effective method?

Hooting at my spelling on this thread while pontificating about sound/letter instruction.

''perferabel'

Can I say in mitigation have been glued to my chair since 10 am??

Those of you who deliver L & C - do you cover the 'ure' trigraph or just move on quickly? (phase 5 I think).

'if someone has a skill that is lacking you get them to practice, not change the way of learning to a less effective method'

And that dear Moonlight is the rationale at the very core of Precision Teaching.

Yanbu - should be 't' like train' or r like 'rrrrr' (growling sound ) and f like 'fffff' (about to swear noise)

L & C?? I meant L & S obviously...

moondog you can visit the Jolly Phonics site and listen to the phonemes www.jollylearning.co.uk/ you can also order a free parent's presentation dvd if you are interested.

hocuspontas /ure/ is in phase 3 taught in reception.
I don't use L&S but I teach /ure/

DS has just started Reception and all the parents have been given a lecture on remembering to use pure sounds and not... ummm... impure sounds (although 'impure sounds' really ought to be something else entirely...)

Oh yes, phase 3. Apart from 'pure' and 'cure' we found there were no other words that most of the 5 year olds knew! L & S list 'sure' and 'insure' as examples but I think the 'sh' sound is confusing. I think we are going to leave it for the u-e stage and wondered if anyone else did.

Just remembered the EP said that children with autism focus on the detail and find it hard to see the whole picture so they can't build up a word.

DS isn't yet 3, so I haven't really entered the formal ed yet (although soon to start ABA). Didn't know phonics was all levels and lessons. Just thought it was saying the sounds the way you say them and then putting them together. But then, I'm not a teacher or a SALT, although it IS slightly worrying that there are plenty of teachers and SALTs causing confusion

"I'm really interested in this alleged ballsing up of Phonics sounds in JP. is it really so??"

it was the parent's presentation DVD as MRZ says where they balls us some of the consonant sounds. I noticed right away because as it always grinds on me when I hear the sounds presented wrongly.

Moony, I also studied the IPA symbols for sounds many yrs ago and I still see sounds in some of the graphemes (?) when I sound out words.

someone advise me on how to talk to the teacher about this. i don't want to come over like a tactless know-it-all.

I have to say my son never grasped phonics but could read whole words from a very young age I've also taught an ASD boy who was the same.

TeamEdward some of my last reception class completed all 6 phases (I don't use L&S but they covered the same ground)

My class "play" a lot too.

Just remembered the EP said that children with autism focus on the detail and find it hard to see the whole picture so they can't build up a word.

That's bollocks. Well, rather it may be true of some children with ASD but you can't make blanket statemnts like that.It's like saying all Welsh people are good at leek growing or all Argentinians like tango.

MRZ, I did go to the site as you suggested earlier and had a bit of trouble with sound files so shall try again. (Headsprout also has soundfiles). I'll order the parent CD too. It is a shame if this is the case (ie making dodgy sounds) as Jolly Phonics is a sound programme.

Foxy, IPA is brilliant isn't it? It allows you to see across and beyond the letters and think only in terms of sounds (kind of like the 'magic eye' pictures. Once you know how to do it you see past main picture and to the one hidden within). All students at a higher level learning foreign languages should learn it.At a basic level it is damn easy and so useful. They all did when I taught in French and Russian unis.

the teacher had spare copies he was lending parents but since i haven't time to scratch my own behind these days i didn't ask for one. i will bring it up to him. just wondering about the approach. may speak to his mentor, a deputy head instead.

she and he know i am a teacher and i don't want to make them uncomfortable but neither can i argue with dd1 if she comes home with the wrong sounds one day. as you know 'teacher is always right.' in the eyes of a 4yo.

yes, only a fellow geek can hold IPA so dear. though you are a special geek, moony.