An Eleven Plus question

[paranoidmother]

Was listening to a conversation our headmaster was having with all the parents of new children joining our school. He said that the only children who will pass the 11+ are ones who have had at least a year of out of school 1 to 1 tutoring.

Knowing absolutely nothing about the 11+ (apart from taking the 12+ about 20 years ago and I can't remember much about it)
What is involved in the exam (again it might change in the next 5 years before dd takes it)?
What sort of things do the tutors tutor?

Luckily for me the best school in the area doesn't need a pass of the 11+ to get into, so it's not going to matter one way or the other but was interested in what was involved. Oh and I will be helping DD when the time comes as much as I can but i'm not going to be devistated if she doesn't pass.

If you look at the website of the particular school it will tell you. Some do non verbal reasoning papers some do verbal reasoning as well as maths and english.

If the school is under LEA control then their website should tell you.Around here the children are tested only on verbal reasoning and non verbal reasoning which are designed not to make much difference whether you tutor or not.Where we live it is perfectly possible to pass 11+ without 'a years 1 to 1 tuition'
My 2 eldest did a few practice papers you can buy from WHsmiths.Sounds a bit of a cop out on the schools part if you ask me.

In Kent the 11+ consists of 3 papers - verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning and maths. Some other LEAs will only have verbal or non-verbal reasoning and no maths assessment.

Most children in my area (where there are uber-selective grammar school - you need a 95% pass rate to be certain of gaining a place) are tutored, or are in private education where they are coached in the 11+.

A tutor will usually work with a child for a year beforehand, working through a series of books (Bond series usually) and then practice papers with the chiildren. It's more so that the children are familiar with the type and style of questions that they will face in the exam, and also working under time constraints, rather than curriculum based work. Although the maths paper covers some areas which aren't taught in state school until after the exams are sat in September!

It's not necessary to have a tutor as you can do this yourself.

depends on child, parent, school and LEA.
Each county sets slightly diff exams and each school will have different selection criteria
Ds started practising the 11+ questions (at home) three months before the exam. He passed and will be going the Grammar school in September. (but this wasn't a highly selective school - he just had to pass!)

the Elevenplus website and chuckra website have loads of info

Thank you will have a look at a few websites.

DS is the youngest in year 5 with his birthday on 30th Aug! Now they have the 11+ test mid-october so he will be sitting it about 6 weeks after his 10th birthday.
our school doesn't really differentiate and it seem because he is above what the average in his year is expected to be...they aren't really bothered setting him any more demanding work.

We have been led to believe that some of the subject matters needed for the 11+ doesn't get taught to the children until the end of year 6. Their argument is, that all children have to sit it the same time, all have a fair chance etc...but it's not the case at all IMO.

Sat down with DS a while back doing a few practice tests, he came across a sum "a+a+a" and he didn't have a clue. He guessed at 6,9,12,15...LOL but had never done any algebra a school. I explained it and now he is doing much more complicated algebra...but surely the children whose parent can afford to go to a tutor are in a much stronger position. Not because of the children capabilities, simple the lack of opportunities to learn.

But Dingle, if you can find out the sort of questions he'll be asked and make sure he does practise papers, he'll be on an equal footing with the tutored kids - especially if you're prepared to go over and explain anything he hasn't learned before.
The LEA or the school will tell you, as others have said.
And don't forget the results are standardized to allow for differences in age.

Tutoring should not be necessary...and it gets me really annoyed that some children manage to get into selective grammar school's on the back of parents money...surely Grammar School places should be allocated to the naturally bright children who do not need extra help to pass the exams....

My niece has just spent the first year in a top 50 selective state school...no tutoring, no previous exam papers etc....and this is clearly evident...she's achieved the most merits in her year and various awards....because she naturally fulfilled the academic ability to be at that school.

I firmly believe that tutored children should be stopped from sitting exams for selective schools .... if your child does not have the natural ability to reach the targets set by selective schools then they should not be offered a place.....

3 of my 4 passed the 11+ (we're in Kent) and none were tutored. We bought the practice papers from Smiths to get them used to the format and did a few a week just before the exams.

Agree with lottysmum. If it doesn't come naturally, the child shouldn't be there.
If Ds hadn't passed his 11+ then I would've accepted that he wasn't bright enough to go to a grammar.

I suppose I am also feeling guilty that I don't have much time to support him as my DD(7) has Down Syndrome and quality time with my DS is just now existent.

Just had his report back and he has a 4A for maths and reading and 4B for writing. Not sure that this is good enough to see him through the 11+.

Should have held on for a few more days while I was PG!LOL

What sort of allowances are made for a summer baby then please?

should be NON existent - sorry!

Dingle, the 11 plus is age standardised in most areas. So if your child is born in August this will be taken into account in the scoring.

OP, you do not need to get a tutor. You can do past papers with your child before the exam. Use the 11 plus exams website. My DS passed with no tutor and he is no spectacular genius.

I've heard that the grammar school entrants tend to be weighted towards older children - but purely because the parents of the 'young for their year' children often don't know about the standardization, so don't put them forward.
The exam and marking are deliberately constructed so that relative age within the year group does not make a difference to the score.
No one should be reluctant to enter their child based on his or her age.

I've not heard that before OLOPS. My Ds is an August 10th child and I knew nothing about the 11+ per se. I just knew that Ds was intelligent and that if he 'bothered', he could pass it.
I borrowed half a set of practise papers from a friend and had to literally bully Ds to do them, then after getting some advice on MN on a thread I just happened to see, I got him doing a couple of online practises. I could never have afforded tutoring even if I'd known about it and when I did hear other mums at the gate talking about having tutored little Reg and Cecil for two years, my heart sank because I felt I'd failed my child.

Yes, if you genuinely think your child is bright enough, put them in for it regardless of their DOB, but surely if they are never going to pass it, isn't that cruel putting them in for it? they will feel so disappointed if they don't pass.

lottysmum - yes it does seem unfair that grammar school places can be awarded to those who can pay for tutoring. But, having said that, if you are a parent with a bright child who would benefit from attending a grammar school, surely you have a duty to your child to do the best for them, which may well mean tutoring? I am referring to admissions to ultra selective grammars btw, which is what we have locally - ones which have no catchment area but take purely on results. If everyone else does it, then you can put your child at a disadvantage if you don't do it too. And there many, many children in my part of Kent who pass the 11+ but do not gain a grammar school place, purely because there aren't enough places to go around.

dingle - yes there are aspects of the 11+, particularly in the maths paper, which aren't included in the curriculum until after the exam is sat, especially if they hold the test earlier in the year (September/October time). This when running through test papers and the Bond series (or having a tutor) is a huge benefit.

I believe that in Kent the weighting/standardisation to age equates to -2 points if you are a September child, through to +2 points if you are a July/August child. This may well vary in other LEAs.

Having had my schooling many years ago in New Zealand I find the whole selective process in the UK rather daunting and a bit of a minefield!

make sure you all accept the same definition of " tutoring"
is it making a silk purse out of a sows ear OR doign past papers?

we did 6 months of the latter

Thank you for the replies! we are in Medway, Kent, which is a whole little entity in itself!

Homelife with a disable child isn't always easy and we just want to give our DS the best opportunities and choices available to him.

He is a blue eye little angel at school but getting him to do homework for us has proved to be more an attention seeking event and it take longer to coax him to do any work than the actual work itself! i often put that down to him having a disabled sibling but it could be his age, a boy thing....

We have tried to support him at home with maths and verbal reasoning but I have found english very difficult to judge- I haven't a clue what standard they are looking for so all I felt able to do was corrent the odd spelling mistake, punctuation or grammar...etc.

I don't think it's his ability that will hold him back, it's his lack of motivation for us supporting him at home and the school's lack of differentiation to stretch his ability and knowledge above the rest of the year group.

I think he will do well wherever he goes but he seems so emotionally and socially insecure.

Dingle - I think that if you don't feel comfortable yourself in whether you're properly supporting his work at home, then it may be useful to have someone on the outside do it for you. Also I found that my DS (also year 5, and 31st July birthday) works much better for other people than myself. Like your DS he will just be 10 when he sits the 11+ in September.

I do also understand what you mean about your school's lack of differentiation to stretch brighter children. I've just got back from parent/teacher consult about my DS, who has been assessed at level 5s throughout - his teacher virtually said, well, there's not much else we can do for him and there is the risk that he will become bored next year . The teacher said it would be 'inappropriate' in the current setting to be introducing, in particular, the maths concepts required to pass the 11+.

My DS is also socially insecure, although this is improving as he gets older, so hopefully your DS will gain in confidence too.

Our ds1 is sitting 11+ this September...he is 10 on 29th August.
Here they have verbal and non verbal reasoning papers.His class teacher said that some parents start tutoring them from Year 3 and that she thinks some children who are not suited to the Grammar get a place and some who would be suited do not.Ds1 started this school in April[Year5].We are going to give him a paper a week...we really feel he just needs ahand with the timing and putting the line in the right box and not losing the run of himself has he can be a bit slapdashObviously getting him used to the types of questions will be good for him too.I really would like him to go to our Grammar as everytime we have been it has such a nice feel and ds1 wants to go.He went on a taster day there and at the other school and even though he had pizza at the other school he prefers the GrammarI am finding it very hard to keep my mouth shhut and not pressure him but I am managing it.Also if he dosen't want to do the test papers we are not going to force him...blimmin tricky.Off to read rest of thread now.

Our "Open days" aren't until November after the 11+ results are in. I can understand it in some ways but it's so hard trying to encourage and motivate my DS when he hasn't got a clue what the schools are like- TBH, neither have I.I just want him to have as much choice and opportunities as possible.

I've been struggling with fighting the system for so long with our DD, tribunals,statementing the lot- I have never had the time to support my DS, as he never really needed it academically.

One thing that helped with motivation for DD last year was hard cash - probably controversial, but the only way she'd do the papers was against one of us, with the (in hindsight, rash) promise of a fiver if she beat our score - which she usually did, as it turned out.

WE have just started this process with DS. TBH I wouldn't have even thought about it had he not been getting decent SATS results already. We will be practicing and hopefully find a tutor with some inside knowledge of technique for a bit of familiarisation. He is keen to do it and thrives on challenge and competition.
We have been very clear that whether he gets a place or not will be nothing to do with how bright he is or even whether he 'passes' the exam, and everything to do with how many other bright people sit the exam this year (a huge number, it seems).

So I don't think my son needs tutoring as such: he can already do most of the things required in the practice papers quite happily. But he does need timing practice, technique to avoid daft exam mistakes (not checking question numbers etc). And I don't see why we shouldn't try and gain a bit of the advantage that all the prepped kids and those tutored for years who have just learnt the techniques will have.

Lupus, didn't you have that thread which was about "Shall I send my DS to a grammar school a squillion miles away from home?" You are nuts!

Yes. I drove it at the weekend. Was not SO bad (30 mins). Though will be worse with many tractors and schoolrunners to get stuck behind.

But vv good school I think (DH's VERY first words were: we are NOT moving...)

It is possible - if he gets a place and not remotely likely - that others locally may share transport. We'll see. Cannot afford nor wish for independent schools so if not grammar then local comp and lots of being pushy!