Did anyone else struggle with the QTS Numeracy test for teachers?

[FlorenceofArabia]

I had no trouble with the Literacy and ICT tests but I have failed the bloody Numeracy several times . I'm a mature student and have always struggled with maths but got my GCSE a few years ago with lots of studying. However, I've done the practice materials and get by but things go to pot when I take the actual tests.

The invigilator told me she has had some students take and fail the Numeracy test over 40 - yes FORTY - times .

Help!

[piscesmoon]

If you are taking the really clever year 6 children then questions are fired at you in the same way-you would look pretty silly if another child could answer where you had failed!

[purits]

I have just taken the teat. It is very easy: sample question: what is 6.03 x 100?

If you can't do it then I certainly wouldn't want you teaching my kids. Judging by the above comments, I will probably get some abuse from you for that comment, which is another reason why you shouldn't be a teacher.

[juuule]

If FlorenceofArabia has a maths GCSE qualification then I would think that she is capable of doing primary school maths. So, it's possible that it's the format of the test that is the problem. In which case, Florence, the only suggestion I could make is for you to sit lots of practice tests in that type of format until it becomes second nature. (A bit like they do with Y6 to get them to pass SATs, I suppose )

[purits]

Gah! I normally proof-read my posts but I was so incenced by this that I pressed the PostMessage button straightaway - hence the typo's (before flo comes back with some smart comment about my literacy).

[piscesmoon]

Out of curiosity I had a look at the part that would load and there was nothing that I wouldn't expect to do with top juniors. If I was to put a problem on the board and ask them for the answer I would have had to work out the answer first myself, while talking to them so you do have to be able to think on your feet.They love it when you make a mistake-but not if you were to make a habit of it!

[piscesmoon]

juuule-in that case she would pass the test-especially if she were to practise-it seems to me that you need a good grasp of percentages.

[throckenholt]

to be honest I think this is a bigger problem with the way teaching is in primary level.

Most of the teachers are from a more literate/arts background rather than a numerate/science background.

And even teaching basic level maths - you really need to understand and have a feel for numbers. If you don't then you are just teaching by rote and can't easily explain things in a different way to someone who doesn't understand the first method. There are lots of different methods in maths - and often just explaining things in different words, or looking at it from a different angle makes all the difference.

I am coming to the conclusion that primary level would benefit from specialist teaching in some areas - eg maths, science, art, music, sport - maybe by sharing specialists between a number of schools. People who can use their specialist knowledge to throw in more examples. And then have the normal class teachers concentrating on the things they are good at. Surely you can't expect anyone to be good at teaching everything - and most people will naturally gravitate to explaining things in a way they understand themselves.

Eg my DS (year 3) recently did "science" - on light and shadows - and they ended up doing a drama about it. All well and good (I have no problem with using drama for lots of things) - but is doesn't actually teach them much about the science of light and shadow ! In that case the drama should have been in addition to the science - not instead of it !!!

[FAQinglovely]

exactly you'd have the sum on the board.

When I wrote down the 18km - 30 pupils sponsored 5p each one this morning I managed to do it no problem as I was getting the DS's sorted for school.

And I like the way you picked the easiest question in the whole test as an example - now you know they weren't all that easy if you did it all the way through (presuming you did the same one as I did at 3am this morning LOL).

Mind you I'm stick fecked off that I failed the practice ICT one

[piscesmoon]

When you do the test you only need the answer, so you can do it any method that you choose.
You constantly have to think on your feet, last week I was giving a mental maths test-easy as I read the questions and had the answers-as they marked it we got to one answer that they all disagreed with so we had to look at it and the answer sheet was wrong. I find that even answer books to text books can be wrong.
They tried your method with First, Middle and Upper schools Thockenholt and I assume it failed as they are all changing back. A primary school couldn't timetable for a specialist in Maths, they can manage in music or similar but not something that a DC needs every day.

[FlorenceofArabia]

LOL at those telling me I'm not fit to teach your children - fortunately the teachers, professional tutors, headteachers etc who have watched my lessons don't agree I am a danger to the education of your precious G&T kids

Riven - if you've not even looked at the test, how the hell are you qualified to comment on my suitability to teach maths?? Didn't you used to Home Ed your kids - hope you are fully qualified with up to date skills.

I took GCSE maths a few years ago, got a B, have failed the QTS test a couple of times (I wrote "several" in my OP but that's cos I was dashing it off and didn't expect the AIBU vultures to pick it apart!).

Thanks to those of you who have been kind enough to post supportive comments

[piscesmoon]

I don't know what you wanted us to say Florence! If you posted then not everyone is going to agree. You can be a very gifted teacher but you should still be able to pass the test-especially since you can practise it beforehand.

[RachieW]

I think the problem with the QTS tests is the timing, it requires very quick mental maths which many people find hard to do. Add to this the pressure of knowing that this test could be what stops you from teaching, which you have trained so hard to do, and I think we could all see why people can go to pieces. As I said in my earlier post though I think speed in maths comes with practise so Florence can do this.

I agree with Throckenholt about specialist teaching in certain areas. I think primary schools do need to think about using teachers to their strengths. I think this will become the case in the future, particulary with the introduction of modern languages to primary. I know lots of colleagues who feel really out of their depth with this. I'm not saying that teachers should be able to opt out of teaching Numeracy and Literacy but just that staff can be looked at as a whole and their skills used to provide the best education for their pupils.

[purits]

Well of course I picked the easiest question. It was to express my astonishment that they felt it necessary to check that teachers can multiply by 100.
None of the mental arithmetic questions was that difficult (using 5miles=8km, convert 85mi into km; express 15 out of 20 as a percentage and then say how many more/less it is than 75%; what time is it one and a quarter hours after 13:35).
I wasn't impressed with the second part of the test where, often, the task was to tick the box if a statement was true. In the ideal world, a non-tick would mean that the statement was false but it could also mean that the candidate hadn't got a clue and had merely skipped that question! It should always require a yes/no or true/false answer, never a non-response.

[wordgirl]

I thought I was fairly useless at maths - scraped a C at O'level but I must admit I found the QTS test really eas which does make me a bit abut GCSE maths.

[purits]

"LOL at those telling me I'm not fit to teach your children - fortunately the teachers, professional tutors, headteachers etc who have watched my lessons don't agree I am a danger to the education of your precious G&T kids"

If the teaching profession is so clever, why do they do the QTS test at this stage of training? Shouldn't they weed out no-hopers before they waste thousands of pounds on them?
Do us all a favour and keep an eye on the Pedants thread, where teachers' gaffes are a very common topic, and count it as part of your continuing professional development.

[FAQinglovely]

purits - well yes written down like that I can do it no problems.

My maths teacher at senior school would have laughed at the questions on that practice test. But she couldn't explain how to do it other than in the way she knew, and even then she was cr*p at explaining that too.

I remember sitting in maths lessons with my eyes glazed over wondering how she'd come up with the answer to questions - even when she wrote the "thinking" out on the board I struggled to see it and she couldn't explain how she'd done it.

I failed the practice maths one (no surprise really given that I had such a crap teacher) partly because I forgot which the mean/mode/mediums are

I failed the ICT one miserably - does that mean I'm crap at ICT and/or explainng things to people . Hell no - admittedly I'm not a teacher, but I certainly know how to send emails with attachments and have told friends over the phone how to do it. I haven't used powerpoint, but I do use SongPro to set up services for church sometimes, and am "in charge" of getting the laptop set up and connected when it's used at our after school service.

and the literacy one I passed, god knows how - seeing as though 95% of the comments on my OU assignment that I got back last week were about the grammar and spelling LOL.

It just seems a bit odd that people are saying "well if you can't pass one of these tests under exam conditions after the first attempt or so then you're not good enough to teach" - does that therefore mean that somone who gets 100% in them is???

[FlorenceofArabia]

"If the teaching profession is so clever, why do they do the QTS test at this stage of training? Shouldn't they weed out no-hopers before they waste thousands of pounds on them?"

According to the General Teaching Council the QTS tests were introduced to test the literacy, ICT and numeracy skills of non-UK trained teachers who wish to work in the UK. Student teachers who are doing their Initial Teacher Training in the UK (and therefore have with the required GCSEs) are obliged to take the test to ensure equality i.e. immigrant teachers are not being discriminated against by being made to take the test.

[throckenholt]

RachieW - surely it is not beyond the skills of timetabling to have one specialist teacher in a school that has a class at a time for up to an hour. Teachers are given ppa time - when the class has to have another teacher to cover - why can't that time be used for specialist teaching ?

As for numeracy - I am not saying the normal teachers shouldn't reinforce the work they are doing on a daily basis - but that extra specialist input would give things a boost where needed. To be honest I think maths should not be a separate thing - it should be part of a lot of the other teaching - but you can only do that if you think in a numerical way - otherwise you wouldn't think to do it.

I forgot about modern languages - that is another case in point - most primary school teachers are not linguists - how can we expect them to instil enthusiasm in a subject they themselves don't have much feel for. If you don't have some expertise in a subject all you can do is keep one step ahead of what the class is doing - but you can't go with the flow and extend the lesson into something unplanned if needed because you don't have the background knowledge.

[FlorenceofArabia]

"I did the test and had no trouble "

Well you would say that, wouldn't you?

[throckenholt]

um - dredging memory here - if you have a curve - say use of fertiliser over time - the area under the curve will give you the total you need for the whole time.

Used a lot in drug dosages I think (among many other applications).

[throckenholt]

other applications of integration (area under a curve) I found :

Integration is just a sophisticated way of multiplying two connected quantities. It is very useful. You mentioned one.

Speed and time to get distance because s * t = d.
Others are
Power and time to get energy
Acceleration and time to get velocity
Radius and angle to get area
Current and time to get charge
Force and distance to get work