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Primary education

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Original poster

unauthorised absence - holiday during term time

23 replies

handbagqueen · 04/03/2009 17:22

Hi,

One of my friends has requested 4 days off at the end of the summer term so she can take her DD to visit her family who are abroad (the tickets have already been purchased). She's had a rough year and needs a break. Her DD has had some health problems but now thay are sorted through an op she had a few weeks ago. The head has not authorised that holiday saying that he can't as her DD's attendance is below 90%.

My friend asked to meet with him, but was asked to write - she explained that the health issues and the fact that this has now been dealt with, but she was told no again and that he sympathised but his hands were tied as the attendance officer would not be happy if he authorised this holiday. I think from what she said that she was told that it wasn't at his discretion. They also didn't provide her with her DD's attendance figures as she thinks so far she has at most had 10 days off due to sickness and her op.

She was then sent a letter saying that if her DD has an unauthorised absence she will be served with a fine and possible prosecution.

Is this really the case?
Is there anything else she can do?

I have suggested she arranges a face to face with the head and asks for the attendance figures to be made available.

As the holiday is not until the summer surely they can't make a decision based on her attendance so far this year and need to see how she progresses over the next 1/2 of the year?

Any advice would be gratefully recieved.

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LauriefairycakeeatsCupid · 04/03/2009 17:30

she could pay the fine if she decides to go away.

She could contact the department who may minister the fine and talk to them - maybe the head has done all the can and really this is out of their hands.

DollyMessiter · 04/03/2009 17:33

Probably just standard letters - they don't take individual circumstances into consideration.
Maybe she could phone the LEA to check it out.

These sorts of issues make me shudder though; George Orwell would feel right at home.
I'm sure a parent is perfectly capable of deciding what is best for their child.

MrsMattie · 04/03/2009 17:35

They won't prosecute for a one off. She may have to swallow the fine, though. We are taking DS out of school (Year 1) for 2 weeks next year for the World Cup in South Africa. I have been upfront about it and will pay the fine. There is no way we aren't going. It will be a holiday of a life time and far more beneficial than 2 weeks of phonics that he already bleeding well knows in grey old London

Fizzylemonade · 04/03/2009 17:39

Out of curiosity how much is the fine?

Original poster

handbagqueen · 04/03/2009 17:45

I think it is £50 but rises if not paid within 28 days, like a parking ticket.

My friends DD is year 1 too.

I was just really shocked that they are taking such a hard line and also whether they are being completely honest about the attendance officier. I understood that it was at the heads discretion - but I'm happy for someone to tell me I'm wrong...

OP posts:

ABetaDad · 04/03/2009 17:50

Parents taking their kids out of school for holidays is wrong. End of.

MrsMattie · 04/03/2009 18:43

Urrr, why?@ABetaDad. Even the Head of our school couldn't explain why it was 'wrong' to take a 5 yr old boy on an amazing trip to South Africa for the World Cup (where his dad will be working for a month). She just said 'LEA will fine you, but if I were you, I would too'.

There are other experiences outside of school life that enhance children's lives.

ABetaDad · 04/03/2009 18:52

Children need school. We know why parents do it. They do it to save money on the cost of their holiday.

Its a symptom of our consumer society.

Original poster

handbagqueen · 04/03/2009 20:10

I agree Mrs Mattie. ABetaDad you have a very narrow blinkered view of the world. There a hundreds of reasons for taking holidays during the school year and most of them are not cost related.

OP posts:

MollieO · 04/03/2009 20:28

Our school is supportive for life time opportunity type holidays and also didn't mind when I took ds skiing (holiday booked for school holidays and then they altered the term dates!). Next year I will probably go skiing the same week and this time know that ds will miss a couple of days of school. I would do it on the basis that he is learning a skill that helps to improve his gross motor development. He will be 5. I wouldn't do it if he missed important school work and I wouldn't expect his teacher to take the time to help him catch up. I would also go that week as it is a third of the price of going during half term, which would mean we wouldn't be going and I would get school approval prior to booking.

applepudding · 04/03/2009 21:58

Approval of time out during term time IS due to the discretion of the Head Teacher. However, depending on the overall attendance figures in the school, and whether the school is due OfSTED inspection, the Head will take a hard or less hard-line here, on the advice of Local Authority advisers. Normal guidance is for a school to give a maximum 10 days authorised absence to a child for holidays in term time (with the proviso that this is discouraged as much as poss), but I'm not sure how this fits in with a child who has already had sick leave - I would have thought this would be looked at separately - but perhaps not. Normally a school would only refer a family through to Education Welfare Officer with the idea of prosecution for non-attendance if there was a persistent problem with absence in a particular family.

ABetaDad · 04/03/2009 22:02

handbagqueen - I think MollieO has provided the answer.

"I would also go that week as it is a third of the price of going during half term, which would mean we wouldn't be going and I would get school approval prior to booking."

To be honest I see it a lot among kids in Prep school that already have shorter terms than state schools.

I know there are advantages to 'out of school' experiences but that does not mean they should be done when the school is operating. People should wait unil the school is on holiday and not operating.

RustyBear · 04/03/2009 22:11

It's only theoretically at the discretion of the Head Teacher - the LA can overrule it in practice.

And a referral to the EWO does not always, or even usually, mean prosecution; certainly in our authority, the EWO will contact parents with a high percentage of non-attendance to establish if there is a problem in the first instance.

MrLSG · 04/03/2009 22:34

Unapproved absence only really reflects on the school and their position in the local league tables. If you insist you are going anyhow, you'll almost certainly find that the absence suddenly becomes approved - so they can make their statistics look good.

And as for any potential fine, check your local authority's policy - some will only start to consider a fine after the 5 days unauthorised absence has occured (in one term), and not actually send a "penalty notice" unless more absence occurs during the next 15 days (a bit difficult at the end of term).

Even if they do fine you, it's only £50 - a small fraction of the cost of the reason you are taking them out of school.

ABetaDad · 04/03/2009 22:39

If it was £200 per day fine it would stop this phenomenon dead.

Its all about the money. Make the fine equal to the extra cost of taking a holiday out of term and no one would do it.

RustyBear · 04/03/2009 22:40

Mr LSG - don't count on it - our head doesn't approve holidays in term time unless in exceptional circumstances (which have to be explained to her face to face, not in a letter) and is quite prepared to defend the level of unauthorised absences with OFSTED

Since she started this policy in her second term, the level of unauthorised absences has risen slightly, but overall non-medical absences have dropped dramatically, so I'd say she has a pretty good argument.

aintnomountainhighenough · 04/03/2009 22:44

The fact of the matter is that schools/teachers have failed to keep to keep up with changing times. We need staggered holidays through different counties and a shorter summer break. IMO a family holiday easily exceeds what they will learn at school in 1 or 2 weeks. Afterall most schools seemed to able to write off a week when it snowed so what difference when parents take their children out for holidays?

Anyway back to the OP. I think your friend should speak 1-1 with the head and reach an amicable solution. Perhaps offering to take the work that would be covered that week might be helpful?

MollieO · 04/03/2009 22:49

ABetaDad, a bit of a selective quote you've used from my posting! It should be read as a whole. For example if I was going to take ds out of school for a week on a beach then I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't expect it to be authorised. I would do what I've said in the circumstances I've described because of the benefit to ds's delayed gross motor development. Seeing his progression and improvement in confidence over a week was worth the two days schooling he missed. Having said that I doubt that I'd pull him out of school for an entire week.

MollieO · 04/03/2009 22:51

And if I had to pay £200 for each of those days it would still be considerably cheaper than going at half term

RustyBear · 04/03/2009 22:56

No, schools didn't 'write off' the snow week easily - it's just made it much more difficult for the teachers to teach what they need to in the time.
And anyway, one week when most of the children are off is very different from having every child in a class of 30 taking 2 weeks at different times during the summer term - which is what could easily happen if term-time holidays weren't so strongly discouraged.

Staggered holidays are difficult for parents who have children at schools in different authorities - a friend of mine currently has children at schools in 3 different authorities. And anyway, when the Easter holidays fell on different dates in different places last year the holiday companies simply raised their prices for the whole period.

aintnomountainhighenough · 04/03/2009 23:03

Rustybear - I don't agree. If there was a complete change in the way holidays were taken there would be a change or leveling in prices. You are quoting one small case, if it was changed over the country it would make a difference. Anyway I stand by what I said, often a holiday with the family will easily outweigh what is learnt in school in a week.

RustyBear · 04/03/2009 23:12

Yes, in some circumstances a holiday might be more beneficial for that particular child than the time in school. But if every child took two weeks off, you'd have two or three children missing every week from each class in the summer and probably in the skiing season, which would be very disruptive to the class as a whole. And if schools didn't strongly discourage term-time holidays, that is what would happen - it was beginning to happen at our school before the new head came in.

As far as the prices go, you may be right, maybe I'm just too cynical to believe that the holiday companies would actually forgo the opportunity to make more money...

MollieO · 04/03/2009 23:13

My ds's school was shut one day during 'snow week'. The neighbouring state school was shut for 4 out of 5 days because of the LEA refusing to run school buses (same company as our school used and our buses ran). I'd be in favour of a six term year and no long summer holiday. I am sure that would make a difference to the price hikes.

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