How important are 'modern' teaching methods?

[NormaSnorks]

DCs were in a very good (but large!) state primary school which was highly ofsted rated.
I helped out in class a bit, and the style of teaching was very modern, progressive, 'hands-on' doing-type stuff....

DS1 was doing OK, DS2 not so well(too big class & struggling) so we moved to an independent primary.

They are both happy and doing 'well' academically & socially. However I find myself frustrated by what I see as very old-fashioned, and frankly quite dull teaching methods - lots of written work, less 'all-round project work', less use of ICT/ white board/ interactive resources and 'hands on' learning.

How important is this if the school is getting good results, and the kids seem OK?

I just feel as if I know there are so many good resources available these days, and the school isn't using them...
Should I be talking to the head about this?

Most of the parents at the school have no experience of the state sector, so wouldn't necessarily 'see' this direct comparison...

sorry, norma.

I think you make a very fair point in your op and I have been surprised and bemused by some of the strong responses.

heated's post in particular made me think of Mr Eliot

Thanks - well, yes, me too actually (surprised that is..)

I suspect there is an under current of "well if you go independent, that's what you should expect..." which I actually don't agree with!

Message withdrawn

'Pisces - I really don't understand your point of view on this - isn't teaching about stimulating a child's natural curiosity? And instilling a love of learning through interest and engagement?'

Of course it is! I am all for the first school.There is no way I would have moved my DCs away from it. My point is that you took them away from the methods that you liked and have paid for them to go to a traditional school. You seem to think that the Head is running it that way because she doesn't know any better. My argument is that she is running the school that way because she is giving parents what they want.
You say a few parents agree with you-it never ceases to amaze me that parents will pay huge sums for things they are not happy with!
It seems to me that you want the present set up, with the small class, but you want them to change the teaching.I would just love to know what the Head makes of your suggestions.

I don't think the Head is 'giving the parents what they want' except in the sense that Year 6 academic results are good, and majority of the kids get into the top local independent schools.

I think 90% of the parents have had their kids there from age 2, so will have no experience of any other kind of teaching methods. I expect some of them have 'delegated' all responsibility for their child's education to the school, and never give it a second thought.

Some parents have asked me how I find the school compared to our last one, and are understandably surprised when I describe what I would consider to be some of the more 'hands-on' learning (especially for DS2 - Year 2).
I'm not talking rocket science here - I;'m talking about things like experiencing growing plants in the classroom, rather than just drawing and reading about them; keeping class snails; having a wormery.

If I'm honest, it is probably an issue between teachers: DS2's teacher is young, enthusiastic, and I think puts more thought into her lesson plans and homework tasks.
Ds1's teacher is older, set in her ways and seems to churn out worksheet after worksheet, and written and reading tasks.

Perhaps the answer to my original post is that 'modern' teaching methods are less important than a motivated, inspiring and committed teacher?

If I was a Head of a fee-paying school in the current environment I would want to know what my parents felt about the school?

My SIL teaches primary level in a prep school and the way she describes her school/ lessons/ teaching philosophy sounds so dull in comparison to my son's state primary. To be fair to her, the school does get good results academically, but I'd far, far rather my son wasn't taught like that. Depends what you want really - I can see positives in both.

I would expect equally dynamic teaching in both sectors. I don't agree that parents whose children are in the independent sector know nothing about the state sector. I have friends whose children are at state school and I did state school visits when choosing my ds's school.

OP your original post reads as if you are the only one unhappy with the teaching, as if you had choosen the wrong school for your dcs. Some schools are more traditional, irrespective of whether they are fee paying or not. If the majority of parents are unhappy then it is worth taking it further.

I doubt that the majority of parents 'never give it a second thought'. Unlike state schools we have monthly reminders via our bank account of exactly what we are paying for

Smee - thanks - maybe I AM looking for the impossible, which is some sort of 'traditional' teaching, but with the best bits of modern thinking.

Talking to friends, it does seem that boys in particular benefit from having some of the more traditional lessons broken up with hands-on activities. However, having seen how quickly these things can end up in chaos in a class of 30, unless there is sufficient small group coaching and interaction, I also understand a teacher's desire to 'keep control' of a class.

I'm genuinely interested to know if there's any research into different methods?

Sorry MollioO, I wasn't saying all private schools are like that. Tbh some State schools are too. Each and every school's different whether you pay for it or not.

MollieO - No, I don't think I am the only one with concerns. It seems to me that any of the parents who have had experience of the state sector before joining the school, or in fact are teachers in the state sector, have the same view i.e. they like(d) the interactivity, but decided to pay for independent school for a) smaller class sizes b) lower levels of disruption c) more individually tailored teaching

I genuinely think there ARE (lots of) parents at our school who don't give the teaching methods a second thought because they have only ever had direct experience of the one school, and because it churns out the required 'results' in Year 6 they blithely assume it is doing the right things - and for them, perhaps it is, if all they are interested in at the end is the entry to senior school.

I'm just a little bit more interested in the process of learning along the way, and how learning skills are developed.

I think you're right about the boy thing - it does seem to be an effective way to work with them. Our son's school has an open door policy, in that reception has it's own play area/ garden and for most of the day the children can go out when they want. They only sit down for (I think) 4 or 5 short periods a day to do more traditional learning, and often this is in small groups. The rest of the time is play, which is obviously still educational but much more free for them to use their imaginations. I think it's great as the idea of kids sitting still at desks all day seems to me a great way of turning them off education, but maybe I'm unusual..

• as for pupil/ staff ratios, well I think that's interesting too. DS has 30 in his class, and it's a two class entry so that makes 60. But there are 3 teachers and 3 teaching assistants, so that's 1 adult to every 10 kids, plus he has dance and music teachers too. I bet that's not any different to many private schools.

A ratio of 1:10 sounds good in the state sector? The DSs former school had 1 teacher + 1 TA for a class of 30. They had lots of parent helpers too, which helped (but sometimes caused issues too!)

I think the journey is as important as the end result especially at primary school age. Poor teaching can put a child off learning and once that happens it is very difficult to re-ignite their interest. One of our local state schools has clas of 20 plus teacher and TA (still didn't like it though and doubt we'd have got in). Ds's class has 15 (started with 13) to one teacher and one TA.

I don't think you should have to choose between interactive teaching and small class sizes! Some of the independent school reports I read mentioned an over reliance on worksheets. It is rather like at nursery. My ds's pictures rarely resembled anything I could identify whereas his friend's (at a different nursery) were always fab. My CM pointed out that the other nursery probably 'helped' with the pictures and that was a criticism from Ofsted - too much focus on finished work product.

Is it possible to have a word with the head? If the school doesn't have interactive whiteboards couldn't the PTA get involved to raise funds for them? Some of ours came via that way.

It's not about the media; it's about the quality of the teaching. A brilliant teacher can get more out of the class by just using his voice and by his interest in their views than a mediocre teacher can get out with a whole array of the latest technology.

As a conference-going academic I feel I have seen all the boring power point presentations I ever want to see. But a good story-teller has me on the edge of my seat, however dull the subject.

If I was paying for education I would make sure that I got what I wanted! I find it strange that people are paying out huge sums each term without giving it much thought.

Pisces - I think I'm violently agreeing with you actually, which is why I don't think it's strange to want to talk to a teacher or the head if I things could be even better.

I think some parents are just automatically private school parents - family history, belief that independent is always best etc etc.

DH & I are not like that. We're not mega-affluent, so paying for school is an important commitment, and I guess that means we want to be convinced that the school has our children's best interests at heart, not only at the end of Year 6, but all along the way too.

And I do agree, Cory, about the media being less important - I think children can get as bored of powerpoint on a whiteboard as they do of worksheets!

Caz10 said it all for me ages ago.

What the point of it all if they can't read, write and count to ten at the end of it.

You can do the whizz bang stuff at home.

Stuffit - yes I agree completely, and at the end of the day I would agree 100% with the schools learning goals/ targets in reading/ writing and maths.

But in my mind I'm still interested in the debate about whether it matters how you get there?

Take times tables.....

• a very traditional approach might be chanting them/ doing endless pages of sums/ spot tests within the class room (sounds like my school days )

OR

• using more physical things (counters/ 'shop' games for KS1 etc)
• using ICT maths games such as TimezAttack etc

If the latter are more effective (quicker? Memorable? interesting?) than surely that makes them preferable over traditional methods?

I would never want to do interactive stuff for the sake of it - it has to be to reach the same ultimate goal?

I hope that you do speak to her, I most definitely would -I am most curious to know her response.

I don't think there's any other way to learn and practise times tables than by repeating and doing sums.

Games and practical use are for when they are fairly well implanted, and for parents to do with the children in shops and with toys and so on.

Every interactive site my children has used has set the games at a lower level than the work they are doing at school. It's just practise, but easier, so it will take longer to get them up to speed.

I am sure from experience that repeating is quicker and more efficient than playing games and using interactive sites.

what a stupid thing to say "I don't think there's any other way"..

my mistake

obviously there are other ways

there is no other more effective way, I should have said

Pointy, I think we can poke fun at extremes at both ends of the spectrum.

I suppose if you want your child to be able to spell well and learn their times tables then this sort of thing is more important.

If one is more interested in one's five year old being given a headache by being asked to do work beyond his ability in the name of creativity and fun then some of the exciting excesses of modern teaching methods will seem very inviting.

However if one wants a child to be confident enough to move forward into efforts that stretch them then a sound drenching of the basics is probably quite helpful.

yes, we can, stuffit. I was making fun of a few of ther more extreme comments on here, thazzall

and i was too sharp

i am thinking of the non stop fun of a five year old boy doing poetry homework when he can barely read Oh Floppy No Floppy and wants to go out and play football

the non stop fun of playing shop when a y1 child can't work out how much three fluffy toys are and feels she ought to know and starts to think well this isn't much of a game

that sort of confidence draining stuff is not just unhelpful, it's damaging