What sort of things do appeals panels give discretion to?

[Fairynufff]

We have to go to appeal to get our DD3 into the school where her 2 siblings go (but we live out of catchment) we're 4th on the waiting list so have a fairly good chance but considering the criteria has already been applied to those that got accepted what else can we say that will hold sway?
Distance I know is a factor but what if we say it will cause family break up? What if we say we will be moving house? What weight does emotional stress have in the decision? Should we get bolshy?
There must be some discretionary factors otherwise what is the purpose of the appeals process? They would just have the publicised criteria and that would the end of it. I know someone who got into a school just because she spend 2 hours arguing and the panel gave in (alledgedly) So what exactly will the panel give more weight to?

Yes I'd like to know the answer to this too. However, we're in a sligtly different situation in that I have just moved to a new area and want to get my DC into our fully subscribed catchment school for Year R. I know there are people in your situation with siblings already at the school and wondering what they are going to pull out of the bag to sneak a place before me!

I was advised by a fellow MNer to contact these people. I did and the man who runs it was incredibly honest with me and said he wouldn't take a consultation fee as he knew I had practically zero chance of winning - I thought that that was very fair and pretty good advice. I suggest you might try talking to him.

Yes, you should definitly lie so your children go to a 'better' school than the one they are catchmented for. Presumably you don't allow your children to tell lies to make their lives easier....

Coldtits - please don't take it out on me. I hate lying and I agree with your sentiments. That is why I ask the question. If we go to the appeals panel and just state the facts but others go and give a sob story and the system allows some discretion for some subjective 'other' that we don't know about then it is the system that creates the manipulation. Berate the system not me. I'm just trying to do the best for my child within the parameters I'm given. Which at the moment is making an 'appeal' against a criteria that has already been fairly apportioned so what is the mysterious 'other criteria' that the appeals panel are going to decide on? That is all I am asking.

I'm taking nothing out on you, my child got into the school I wanted him in anyway. I have no anger about appeals to take out on anyone.

I think it is breathtakingly dishonest to ask for ways to tug on a panel's heartstrings over and above people who may have true, real life needs that are higher than your genuine need.

In fact, it reminds me of the pushy mother on Little Britain, who upon being told "Rafe" hadn't got an acting part, blurted out "He's dying!"

As far as I know there is very very little room (if any) for discretion.

Appeals are dealt with (here) on the basis that they are successful only if the admissions policy of the school/LEA has not been applied correctly to the individual case.

i.e. on distance, other people were offered places despite living further away. Or distance measured from wrong part of residential curtilage (i.e. not front door).

THe extenuating circumstances of the appellant seem to count for very little. Which to some extent is good, because it makes me really uneasy to have the possibility that someone could talk the hind legs of a donkey and overpower the panel into submission and be successful. Where does that leave the people who a) don't lie or b) are not especially articulate.

Colditz is right, you know

don't lie
just don't
don't say you're moving hosue if you have no intention to.
don't say it'll break up your family if it won't
don't get bolshy or they def won't want another of your kids in the school

but do say how much energy and commitment you've invested in the school while dd1+2 have been there (assuming you have of course)
do say how important it is for your dds to have shared experiences and be part of the same school community (assuming it is, of course)
do emphasise how difficult it would be to take two children to one school and one to another (if it would be - does not apply if the catchment school is next door and you have to drive to school-of-choice)

Pooka - thank you that's all I needed to know before I set out on this process - that it is going to a level playing ground. I agree with Coldtits in her sentiments even though she has misunderstood the spirit of my OP. I do feel the desparation of the Little Britain mother but I do believe in due process and fairness. I am a good citizen and I do the right thing but the family I know got her child in after 2 hours wrangling was the Little Britain mother and it worked for her! That's what worries me.
But if places have already been given on the agreed criteria - what is the appeals system for?

what is the appeals system for?

For when the criteria haven't been applied correctly.

The appeals system is for when you think they have failed to take something into account that they should have, or for when you think they haven't followed protocol properly when making their decision.

Or possibly when there are SNs of some description which makes the chool the most suitable for your child and, in your opinion, this hasn't been properly taken into account.

Has your school ditched the siblings policy or have you moved out of catchment?

I find that there are always rumours about what swayed the panel. There was a rumour that someone in an identical position to me had won her appeal because she didn't have a car and so wouldn't be able to do drop offs at different sites from pre-school and primary. But I don't really believe it. I think there must have been something else and it's no one else's business.

I didn't appeal because I had no procedural or administrative beef with the decision, even though was absolutely gutted that dd didn't get the school we wanted.

I do think though that it cannot hurt to put your true personal reasons forward as a background to the appeal. Just not convinced that they will count for much IYSWIM.

I would speak to a specialist, and not ie.

But I can see that haviong children in different schools, esp. at an age where they can't be left or there's no breakfast club, wold be galling.

And even if tehre's a brekkie club it does mean peole have to pay to take their kids to school which is wrong.

DS3 is attending a SNU soon- without lea transport we culdnt cope with 2 sn kids (plus NT ds2) at differing schools.

Sorry to put another spanner in the works and I take on board what you are all saying but the mum I know who argued for 2 hours and won her appeal (along with another) meant that the two extra children took the reception class size to 32. The Head was absolutely astounded (I was the Clerk to Governors so got to hear all the ins and outs). The Governors had to make a decision about what to do about the extra kids and I wonder how the appeals panel could justify allowing two extra above the legal limit (neither had special needs). Why didn't the appeals panel just say no if personal circumstances don't hold sway (and the class was already at capacity)?

We'd have to know the exact details for that Fairy, and that can't be done ehre so it's hard to say.

besides ds3's school place took the class to 32 and although it's because he si sattemented,a nd the school knew he was cming but tried to stop it by offering places to kids miles away to fill it up, Mums don't like it.

He's off soon anyway. Let them have their precious CofW MC school just- before Estyn tears it apart to themselves

I think the appeals system gives false hope to many. They get the bad news that they haven't got the school of their choice, and immediately think "oh, well we'll appeal!" But as has been said already, you have to rpove that the rules have been misapplied, or that there are circumstances that they would have been unaware of in your case.
I honestly don't believe that parent who won her appeal did so by banging on for 2 hours. And your childcare/domestic arrangements won't sway them either. Maximum class size is 30, end of. There has to be an astoundingly good reason why they would push that over.

We appealed (though for secondary school) and were successful despite the school already bursting at the seams and I think there is one thing we definitely learnt: Any story you tell will have to be substantiated. You will have not just to explain but to prove why your child would be less able than other children in his situation to cope with another school.

In our case it was disability, so we provided a file of letters from various medical authorities with evidence of the extent of how dd's disability would affect her ability to cope with the schools in question. Everything we mentioned had to be in a letter by a professional or they weren't interested.

If you mention emotional stress then you will have to provide evidence that your child is actually being treated for emotional stress of a kind likely to be affected by the choice of school. We used this to argue that dd needed to go to a school with children we knew: so we provided letters from the mental health professionals who had been treating her for emotional problems. Just saying dc is going to be terribly upset won't cut it; you need to show why your dc would be more upset than another child in the same situation.

If you use moving house, you will be required to supply evidence that you have actually moved; they are not going to take your word for it.

From speaking to other parents who appealed and who were in the main unsuccessful, I would say that getting bolshy gets you nowhere; it just puts their hackles up. I think there were 40 odd parents who appealed to get into dd's school; the vast majority were unsuccessful.

I have such conflicting advice so far. Some said to put the Christian ethos at the top of the list (we are committed Christians and it's a CofE school) but others have said the LA won't even bother about this. The LA said it didn't matter when we send the form in before the deadline but the Head said to get it in as soon as we could (with a knowing nod). Some people have said measurements from house to school are all that is important but others have said that the fact that we can't physically get two sets of children to different schools should be enough of an arguement. Thankfully the Head has said she will do all she can to get the children in. Fingers crossed.

I know someone who appealed because her third child didn't get in despite having 2 older siblings in the school. She won the appeal. How do they expect you to be in 2 places at once?

Well if you are committed Christians then that obviously cuts out any approach that involves tampering with the truth

Does the school give preference for practicing Christians? Did you submit a proof form?

No, the school does not give preference for Christians even though it is a CofE. It is purely based on catchment area in which we don't live!

Yes cory, as Christians we wouldn't try and cheat the system with barefaced lies but my OP was about what 'grey areas' the appeals panel make decisions on. We might put forward a case based on what matters to us but innocently ommitting pertinent factors (that might've swung it for us) just because we didn't know the subjective buttons to press. A Daily Mail article from last March about winning appeals said you should dress well and "present yourself as a happy person" for goodness sake! Then I definately would be lying because happy is the last thing I am about having to appeal to get my daughter into the same school as her 2 siblings!