Positive discipline in Early Years/KS1

[rubytwokids]

In dd's school they use the 'sun and cloud' thing: picture of a cloud, a rainbow and a sunshine on the wall. So far as I can work out, all the children have their names stuck onto the rainbow. If they do something worthy of praise, they get to move their name onto the sunshine, if they do something undesirable, they get to move their name onto the cloud. If they get onto the cloud several times in one day, they miss a play time. Seems to be popular in schools at the moment.

I acknowldege that I don't fully understand the system (as evidenced by my poor explanation of it, above!) but I'm not overly keen on it. Seems to me that the children missing their playtimes are the ones most in need of a good run about out in the fresh air, so no one really gains there. Plus it seems to be the same old names on the cloud, time and time again, which makes me think it's maybe not working as the incentive it was planned to be!

Does anyone know of any systems that strike them as better? I'm not about to go into school and suggest a change of approach - I'm just genuinely interested! I'm particularly interested in systems which use a 'positive discipline' approach and which seem to work.

Thanks.

The Dispatches Programme is here

Have found this discussion so interesting.

I am SO against pulic naming and shaming for young children - kids are vile enough to eachother as it is without adding behaviour as a potential stick to beat eachother with....

DS has this smily face malarky and I don't approve - he doesn't get it and neither do I. Other children in the class come running out to tell me that DS got a smily face today/frown face today - before he even gets to tell me himself. (usually because he's being held back to the end so I can be "told off" too for his misdemeaners......

I'm bumping this so that I can keep a record of it

When Watch is working again - I'll use that

Saraahrah/littlefish/muppetgirl: i think I love you! It is so great to hear from people who can see that extrinsic rewards don't work! sometimes you just have to do things (tidying. tax)just because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO,it drives me bananas that this feeling is lost to so many people. I blame Supernanny
I'm a supply teacher at the moment and I have NEVER given out stickers, and supply colleagues think I am nuts, as they spend a small fortune each week on raffle prizes for bribery, then inflation kicks in and it's "there's an ipod for not hitting anyone, Charlie". It's insane!

Hiya...I am a infant school teacher and use the good to be green scheme, but I do agree with what a lot of you have said, I think it is important to be intrisically motivated, have just found that the concept does not always work for all children...some, especially the younger ones cannot do it without the external motivational help.
In response to the original post about keeping kids in for playtimes, I agree, it is a fine line, because you are right, it usually is the same few who get kept in, and they are usually the ones that need that run around to let off some energy outside. I think sometimes it depends on the child though, some children are so devastated to miss play because they love playing with their friends so much that one missed play for behaviour can work to motivate them, but then there are other kids who it does not work at all because given the choice they would rather stay inside anyway! So IMO it needs to be an individual thing, if the kids are constantly being kept in, then some sort of other form of consequence likely needs to happened. IMO it is important too to pick your battles as a teacher, same as a parent, we cannot always pick up on every little thing a child does, if we did, it would not do either party any good.
Those that have posted about some forms external forms of motivation, thanks, I have picked up some good tips!

I've just watched the Dispatches programme (I am being involved in the setting up of this terms Nurture group in my school for the first time) and felt really inspired by it, as well as lots of the strategies detailed in this thread.

MrsMaidamess - how is it going? Is there a Nurture Network in your area?

Oh, not sure about that! I think we are one of the only schools around our way to have implemented a nurture room. I'm dead excited about being involved...helping to assess and select the children...and the soft furnishings!

I will investigate A Nurture Network though

Your Ed Psych should know about any networks in the area. Are you able to say roughly where you are? I know of nurture groups in Cornwall and Worcestershire. Any good?

Nah, I'm in Surrey! But I will ask, thanks x

Thank you for all your posts, everyone! I have found them all fascinating and am now ploughing my way through Alfie Kohn's 'Punishment by Rewards'.

You're very welcome! I'd be interested to know what you think re Alfie Kohn.

Sararara...rah {wink], unfortunately I have about 4 books on the go atm, but you have inspired me to crack on with Alfie, so to speak. So far, I am finding him a little wordy and a little too extreme, but then that makes me think so I don't mind that. I will keep you posted.

, I meant !

hiya, have just popped in from my UP and rewards in schools thread...
anyway, this is a fab thread and it has given me hope! lol

but I was just wondering, the high/scope stuff you mention... is there anything like that aimed at secondary school children?
I ask because a good friend of mine has just had a massive career change and is training to teach secondary science (eep!)
he has got a job in the school where he was doing his placement which is in special measures.
he is a FANTASTIC teacher, but has commented on the inappropriate "rewards" given to the worst pupils to try and bribe them into behaving, and how it is affecting the others. one girl spoke to him directly about how crap it was that they get rewarded for behaving like she does every day... she sauid a lot of kids now play up, so that they can then be "good" and get rewarded

so, if anyone has any resources I could point him at they'd be really gratefully received.

This is a fasinating alternative way of looking at the reward/punishment systems employed by different schools, thankyou.

As the mother of an only child, with no experience of the school system (i am also very old and left school about 100 years ago) I am confused and feel a bit bamboozled into the way in which "difficult" children are dealt with.

We are having awful behavioral problems with our ds at the moment at school.
They dont seem to be able to cope with it.
they have a traffic light system where the child (and yes, the same children time and time again) have their names put onto the lights.

My boy was put onto the red a couple of weeks ago. I was told by the teacher that this was something that she has never had to do.

She then told me that unfortunately the other children in the class are continuously reporting on ds's behaviour..."X is doing this, x is doing that".

This is a prime example of what you are all saying about naming and shaming, and reinforcing the fact that ds is a "naughty boy".

he is held back at play times and yes, he is one who has an inability to sit still, this was a major complaint from his reception year teacher. (he is now 5 and in year 1)
They assure me that he does not have any sn, educationally or behaviourally.
He is not from a chaotic home, he has had no experience of social deprevation or neglect....this is just the way that he is.
We ensure that he has adequate sleep, has a healthy balanced diet and has boundries at home.

His school is a small village school, with (SO IT APEARS TO US) practically perfect children in every way.....enter ds.

I want to thank you all for this thread, as i now feel somewhat armed and prepared for my next meeting with his teacher. I have some clarity and have some great ideas now on how to help and support my boy with their help.

I am devastated, shocked, bewildered and cannot fathom what goes on in his lttle head, but i know that they are not helping him.
We feel powerless as this is all happening at school out of our control. This is difficult.
The experiences that you all speak of, all surround children with problem backgrounds, can any of you offer some insight into my childs problems, given the fact that he has none of the contributing factors? I would be most grateful. Also, suggestions to alternative ways of helping him, without traffic lights etc.

Oh deanychip, that sounds really tough. I've got to go to bed now (teaching tomorrow!), but I'll give your message some thought and come back tomorrow or Saturday if that's ok. Perhaps we could chat about it then.

Only one more day until half-term and then your ds can have a whole week at home with you.

Many thanks littlefish.

Thank goodness for half time becasue it means he has no pressure to perform for any one.

I am going to carefully observe him this week while we are both off. Im going to watch his behaviour and mentally note his little problems.

He has and always has had an absolute inability to sit still. He has never watched a DVD all the way through and will only sit for maybe moments before having to get up and "fiddle" or do something with his hands.

Meal times, we get him to eat a couple of mouthfulls then send him to his book shelf to get a book. I will read to him while he eats, for a male, he seems to be remarkabley adept at multi tasking!
He is unable to just "walk" any where, he has to climb on walls, balance on curbs or jump in big muddy puddles. (must admit, i have never discouraged this as i think it is a great way of getting to places with a small child who otherwise just wants me to carry him)
Was told in no uncertain terms that jumping in puddles was highly innapropriate in school (by teaching assistant who had to offer him dry clothing after a wet play)

He tears around the house like a child possessed if we have a visiting child round to play...they have absolutely fabulous fun.

See, i feel that i need to take responsibility for how we have raised him, and must accept that it has come back to bite his bum now that he must toe the line in a school environment and with stringent structure. But it needles me no end.
He is the way he is.
We do not own a play stations/psb or electronic type play things, we are an active family so i can see that we are creating a divide with his pears who are trained to sit and concentrate on these things.
Maybe that is why they are struggling to cope with him?
He is just so very different...but is he? I feel that he is the only problem child yet his teacher says he is not and that she regularly has to have a group of parents in because of their childrens behaviour.

Can you shed any light?

Hi Deany

I think there are a number of things we need to think about.

I think that what you're describing is a situation in which the expectations at home and school are different. A prime example is the issue of jumping in muddy puddles which is great when there's just you and your ds, but when it means that a TA has to take time out of supporting the class, then it has a far greater impact. The trouble with differing expectations is that they can be confusing. The fact that it's ok to do something at home, but not at school takes some children longer than others to take on board. I think you've been very honest about those possible differences, and need to discuss them with the teacher. Whilst I don't believe that all children should be shoehorned into identical boxes, I can also see that it would be difficult for the teacher if your ds behaves exactly the same at school where he is in a class of 30 (?) as he does at home when he is in a very small group and has a great deal of adult attention. In a class of 20 or 30, there does have to be a certain amount of conformity in order to ensure that all the children are safe, happy and make progress.

Some children just are "fiddlers". They cannot concentrate unless they are able to fiddle with something. I'm one of those people who listens much better if I'm allowed to doodle. If I'm not allowed to doodle, I simply switch off. I have taught many children who had a piece of blu-tac, or a unifix cube, or something similar to play with while we were on the carpet. I found that it aided their concentration immensly.

Also, some children learn better when sitting on a chair, or at a table, or beside an adult, or next to the teacher. I don't really understand any teacher's obsession with having all the children on the carpet, all sitting cross legged etc. One of the brightest children in my class spends most of her time at the back of the room, sitting on a cushion in the book corner, often with her feet in the air! However, I know she's listening, and I know she's learning. She's not disrupting the other children, which she certainly would be if I inisisted that she came and sat on the carpet.

I suppose this is the crux of the matter. Is what your ds is doing, disrupting his own, and the learning of the other children?

I'm interested that the school insist that he has no special needs, either academically or behaviourally, and yet, they are unable to meet his needs. How much do you feel that his behaviour is impacting on his progress academically, or more importantly, his ability to make and sustain relationships. My concern would be that if the other children are pointing him out as the "naughty boy", that there will come a point when they will avoid playing with him, for fear of being included in his perceived misbehaviour.

I would ask for your ds to be referred to the Educational Psychologist, so that an appropriate professional can rule out the influence of Dyspraxia, Dyslexia or ADHD. I know those words sound scary, but there is a continuum for all of these, and your ds may have a trait of one or all of them (or none of them).

You refer to the school as being full of "practically perfect" children. This may be another reason why your ds's behaviour seems to stand out. I'm pretty sure that in my school, he would simply fit in with everyone else (and I mean that in a very positive way )

It does sound like your ds has a lot of energy! Have you considered any kind of physical after school or weekend club which will have the double benefit of supporting his physical skills, whilst also helping him to develop his listening skills and ability to follow simple instructions.

I don't know whether any of this is helpful or not. Come back and talk to me some more and I'll try to be more helpful!

Thanks littlefish.
Some of what you say is difficult to hear and upsets me to consider however you shed light onto theories that i have not yet considered.
"Disruptive" is a description that i hear of his behaviour over and over.
He is "difficult" when one on one with myself or his dad. He needs almost constant supervision (but then he is only 5).
Even when supervised he fiddles with door locks, wiring, plugs, lamps, TV buttons until they are broken if he is not physically removed from the siruation because he does not seem to hear "no dont do that" or "stop that".
We explain the dangers...but he is intent on doing what he is doing.
I am exhausted at the end of the day.
He has friendships from bieng very small, he has cousins who he will interact and play with and gets on well with.

He isnt cuddly, dislikes bieng held or cuddled, never has been. He hates bieng held down or forced to be in one spot.

Described as "attention seeking behaviour" by his teacher at the last meeting i do see her point. She also said that she can tell a mile off that he is an only child because of his incapacity to share nicely...again, this isnt a problem at home, he does and always has shared with visiting children.

After school activities, we have tried this, football means waiting around for other children to do an activity, ti kwando ditto and he just doesnt seem to have the ability to wait patiently for his turn as it were.
(you know, wait to do a kick at the end of a line of other children...he loses interest, messess around and gets in bother for bieng disruptive)

Thought we might try again when he is slightly older.

Does he REALLY sound like he has a sn? Or is this normal 5 year old behaviour? I dont know, as my knowledge of small children is poor.

I am very VERY worried now that we are overlooking something that has a major impact on his developing personality and his education.

Jeez, no body told me bieng a mum would be this hard and this gut wrenching

I completely understand deanychip. I am the mother of a very precious, very longed for and long waited for only child. We agonise over everything, however small or large, and have no frame of reference (other than my experience as a teacher, which is useless when it's your own child!)

Our dd has our undivided attention at home and I am aware that this sometimes causes her difficulty at nursery where she sometimes has to wait to be listened to/attended to.

My personal feeling is that at 5, your ds should be able to understand that no means no. He should not be fiddling with things until they break just because he wants to, or can. He should be getting better at waiting for his turn, without becoming disruptive or distracting others.

I'm not surprised that you're exhausted by the end of the day. He sounds like a lovely, lively, child, but one who is high maintenance.

His behaviour is normal for you, because you are used to it, and your family has adapted to accommodate it. However, it is causing him difficulties at school. The ability to take turns and work collaboratively will becoming increasingly important as he goes through school. Is he old or young in the school year? When is his birthday?

Have you talked to your GP or Health Visitor at all? I am absolutely not qualified to say that your ds has additional needs. I'm just a strange person on the internet . I'm just questionning what the school have said, and yet they are still concerned about his behaviour. Some of what you are describing I would say is just normal 5 yr old behaviour e.g. the jumping in puddles. which is fine when it's at home, but not appropriate at school if it means that he gets soaking wet.

I think that for your own peace of mind, it would be worth talking to the Health Visitor, but also, going back and talking to his class teacher (and the SENCO if you feel that his learning is suffering). You need to ask them what strategies they are putting in place to support him, how you can continue those strategies at home. The effect of those strategies then needs to be monitored over a definite period of time so that the efficacy can be determined.

ie. if the target is for him take his turn in a group of 4 children, then the school should be thinking about the stepping stones they need to go through to get him there. e.g. 1st, he will need to take turns with one child playing a game etc. They need to set a timescale of say - 6 weeks and then review it.

Does any of that help or have I just made things worse?

Hi,
I know you are a sranger in the internet but what you say makes sense to me...you are a fresh pair of eyes on the situation and this is refreshing.

I am coming round to the glaringly obvious fact that we are and have been utter utter crap parents. Been in denial up to now.
My family do not tolerate him, my sister will not let him in her house, my mother has a look of utter dread as we walk through her door and other family members tell me that there is something wrong with him and that no one likes him in the family.
We waited for 3 years for him, had 2 mcs prior to having him.

I dont think that we mollycoddle him, nor ignore his bad behaviour.

He is a young 5, not 6 till July.

No means no, and we do enforce discipline on him for unacctable behaviour.

He isnt spoiled.

So if every body tells me that there is something wrong with him, we need to listen and maybe accept it.

BUT we must fight his corner. He is high maintenance. he and dh are never happier than when they are pottering around in the garage with oil up to their elbows messing with bike or car engines. he knows the 4 stroke cycle and has done since he was 3!

He is adpet with screwdrivers of all descriptions, spanners and elecromags are not a challenge to him.
His reading and writing are good, he gets 10/10 on his spelling every week.
this indicates that he is taking some notice of the teacher..despite his distracting of other children and his other activities!!!
LOVES books, will sit from start to finish of any book bieng read to him with interest and patience.
The plot thickens, is there any hope for this happy, cheerful, bright funny little chap???

children who do not well respond to the whole school approach to behaviour management should have their own reward system broken up into smaller chunks.

e.g. rather than having to be good for the whole day to get golden time, they make have a check point after every lesson/breaktime with a mini reward like a sticker.

this ensures their profile is lowered in the class as they achieve their sticker or not by themselves, not in front of the class.

they can still take place in the golden time scheme but the focus of behaviour management is not there iykwim.

I have spoken to my HV over the years because he didnt sleep through the night till he was nearly 4 and i had issues with his behaviour from bieng very tiny.

I do not have any contact with my family now.
If i go to my mothers its every n3 months or so and alone, never with ds...she never asks about him.

My sister hasnt seen him in maybe a year or more, she never asks about him either, she is adamant that no one likes him and no one wants him in their house.

The in laws are not interested.

School have put him on a "report card" whereby he has to have a smiley star on the card after every play and lunch time. he is going through a kicking thing at the mo....he played with a family frends 7 year old about 3 weeks ago who is kicking at the mo.....he is now doing this copy cat fashion.

I am just at a loss.

First of all, you are absolutely NOT CRAP PARENTS. If you were, you would not be on this website agonising over your ds and wanting the best for him.

You're absolutely right that you must fight his corner. You are his staunchest supporter, his advocate and his lovely mummy.

It does sound like some of the issues with his behaviour need exploring further.

The behaviour of your family obviously and quite rightly upsets you.

It's good that his progress at school is not being affected and that he is able to make progress in spite of being seemingly distrated/distracting. He's obviously a bright boy - could this be part of the problem? Are things moving too slowly for him at school? Is the learning style of the class too static for him? From what you say, he sounds like a child who learns best in a practical way, with lots of exploration and opportunities to be creative and active. If the learning/teaching style of the class is one which is very feminised, then this will not suit him at all.

Have you ever volunteered in his classroom to see how it's organised?