Not been offered a place at our preferred junior school - what to do?

[stringbean]

Well, the letters came out today, but we didn't get our preference....but everyone else I've spoken to, including people who live further from the school, did. Ds is at the infant school and this is the linked junior school which has not offered a place.

We are not in catchment, and do not have another child on the role. However, we have a younger child starting at the school in September who has a full statement; her place has already been offered via the statement, but we didn't get a letter for her today, whereas everyone else I know did get letters and places offered for their younger children (including those out of catchment). In addition, I know people who do not have another child on the role, who are also out of catchment and live further from the school than we do, and their children have been offered places at the junior school.

Do admissions teams make mistakes? It seems they have clearly not followed their criteria. We come fairly low on the list I know, but given that other people further from the school and also out of catchment have been offered places, do we have a case?

In particular, will we be made to go through the whole appeal process because of their mistake? It seems so unfair; we have been through so much for our younger child in terms of sorting out education and getting statement and support. Will the admissions team just admit their mistake and offer a place, or are we stuck in limbo for a couple of months?

If anyone can offer advice, I'd be very grateful. Many thanks.

Cargirl, I'm wondering if you're right. We didn't do the application for dd, as we were told the county do this on our behalf, and received a letter from them to this effect. Had we done the application, we would have ticked the 'sibling on roll' box, and they may have thought to match up the forms. However, that still doesn't explain why someone else, nearly a mile further away than us, with no other siblings on roll or due to start, has been offered a place.

SB you may never know that- i've known social services to back application for example in these cases or it oculd be something else entirely.

I bet it is the application form for DD.

Send LEA email now, but as it'll be email 2003 (and if like our LEA will bounce if they have more than a few waiting) send email recorded in the post also, with copy of letter re your DD

I will talk to both the head of the infants and the juniors on Monday. The infant head is expecting dd - she was there at her recent statement review, and suggested extra support for her at lunchtimes (which they've given us!!), so will probably be surprised that ds is not to be at the junior's. The LSAs are alrady arguing over who will be allocated to dd!

I'm also going to go to the admissions office on Monday. The appeals code states we don't have to go through the appeals process if they've made an error, but how are we supposed to demonstrate that error without going through an appeal?? It doesn't seem to make sense!

OK, so what you're saying (I think) is that your daughter's place in the infants isn't any help in getting your son a place in the juniors, which I suppose makes sense in that his own place in the infants didn't.

So it does all seem to come down to distance to school. As I said before, I don't think you'll get anywhere making comparisons with other children - not least because the school and LEA can't give you a complete list of who's got a place and where they live. But you should (in my view) ask for (1) anonymised data of the distance at which places have been awarded and (2) the distance at which the LEA have measured your home. That way, you can see whether - according to the LEA's own meaurements - you live closer than others who have got places. That's the distinction I was trying to make - you can't argue an appeal on the grounds that child A and child B shouldn't have got a place, but you can argue that you live closer than some of the other children who do have places. You can also mention the compassionate factors (ie your daughter will be attending the other school on the site) but because so many people will have compassionate circumstances of different sorts, these may not be enough on their own to win an appeal.

Do check out some of the websites for advice and speak to your LEA's parent adviser (if they have one). It may also be worth seeking advice from a solicitor specialising in school admissions.

Many thanks for all your replies, links, experiences and information; it's been really helpful, although I'm still feeling sick about it. I will have a closer look at the websites you've suggested Bocca. In answer to your question, ds's current place at the infant school should help dd's application, but not the other way round. However, they do try to keep siblings together in linked schools where possible (and have indeed done this for everone else I know!).

I will keep you all posted.

unless you applied on the normal yr r application form, you won't get a normal letter for a statemented child. it will just come out as the named school on the statement. have you had your statement finalised yet? we applied on the normal form as well, as a belt and braces approach lol - it's up to the LEA to sort that out, but if it is the named school on the statement then she has priority over all other applicants.

where we are there (also hants) is no guarantee to move between infant and junior linked schools - you still have to apply and see where you are in the normal competition. no guarantee to move to the linked school, and no effect on siblings unless the child will still be on roll in the same school at the time the sibling is due to start (ie if ds1 is off to juniors when dd2 starts yr r then no effect at all.)

we decided not to appeal last year, but i just got on the phone to admissions and asked lots of questions lol. they are very friendly - it does seem a bit weird tbh about the distance thing - here it is measured by the shortest available route, not as the crow flies, so there may be a misunderstanding somewhere there.

Madwoman, many thanks for your post. We're in Hampshire as well and dd's final statement has already been received, naming our preferred infant school (ie. the one ds already attends). I appreciate this doesn't help ds's application to Year 3, but cannot understand why others have been given a place for their year 2 children when they love further from the school than us. It just makes no sense, and I can only think thay they have not measured their distances correctly. It's measured in a straight line for our school, so we're considerably closer than others who've been offered places. I'm so upset about all this. We've been through so much for dd, to make all her appointments, operations, to see 1001 health care professionals - my stress levels are through the roof at the moment; just baffled why this has happened.

oops - should be 'live' further.

In Surrey they process the junior admissions first and then the infant admissions. I know this as I had one applying for junior school last year and the other applying for a place in a reception class. The two schools are on the same site but are run by different Head Teachers.

I was told that if dd got into the juniors then DS would get into the infants on the sibling rule. This is why they do the juniors first then the infants.

just give them a ring on monday, inform them you want to be on the waiting list, and ask about the distance thing - no point stressing - you might even get a place off the waiting list next week when everyone returns their acceptance forms (this happened to us lol). if you want to appeal because dd has an SEN place at the linked infant school this might give you a foot in the door, but will more likely ensure that they offer transport for her and you are expected to get ds wherever he has been allocated lol.
but don't stress! it's 8 months away and MUCH will happen before then!
i've just spent a year and a half taking 3 to school in two counties lol - it seemed like SUCH a good idea at the time...

and don't forget, you will be automatically suffering from sn mother guilt -

Madwoman, the irony is that we walk to the school currently. It's only about 3/4 mile away - if that. The LEA have said they will not pay for transport. If ds goes to the other school I will have to take them by car, as I cannot walk from one to the other in time to get them both there, and it would mean a ridiculously long walk for ds (going to his old school first to drop of dd - where ALL his friends will be) and then walking to the other school.

Cece, I'm sure if they did this in Hants we would have been offered a place. ALL my friends with older children transferring to Year 2 and younger ones starting in Year R have been offered a place, including those out of catchment and further away than us. It just makes no sense.

Surrey don't have catchment areas - they measure distance as the crow flies. This changed last year so really scuppered DS getting into the infants. Our school went from being 2nd closestto us(By walking route) to 5th closest (as the crow flies) . Thank goodness he had an older sibling, so he got in on the sibling rule...

I agree, people leave and accept other schools. I think you should saty calm and phone them on Monday mornind to find out the situation regarding waiting lists and appeals. Since Sept DD's year 3 class has lost 2 pupils already...

I've just looked at Hants admission rules and it seems that having a sibling in the infant school IS an advantage when applying for a junior place providing the schools are on a linked site. So maybe it was because you didn't tick the sibling box on the form? I know you said you put something to that effect in the comments box but they won't be looking at the comments in the first instance. Did the others who got a place tick that box?

Ah, just noticed that you said someone with no siblings AT ALL had got a place. Back to the drawing board...

Stringbean have jumped in from the thread I started yesterday regarding my dds primary admission. I will be on the phone to the admissions team first thing tomorrow asking for the info Bocca suggested - ie the distance the last place was offered, and the distance they have measured us as, will be interested to know if you ask for the same info if you receive it and I don't or vice versa.... After running it by a lawyer yesterday I am thinking of quoting Freedom of Information act at them - for this information is made publically available later on in the year isn't it......What do you think?

PomsMum - I don't think there will be any problem getting that information; most LEAs have computer software which does the measuring as part of the allocation process so I imagine it's already on file. When I hear appeals, there is always a bit of paper from the LEA which says 'This child lives x metres from the school. The distance at which the last place was given was y metres.'

On the other hand, you certainly won't get a list of children who've got places and where they live because there are privacy issues there.

What I don't know, of course, is how typical my LEA is in the way it handles these things!

Sorry if this has already been said but I don't have time to read all the replies. If distance is the criteria, and people further away, but still int eh same bracket as you (ie out of catchment etc) have been offered a place, then it is clearly a mistake.

You need to point this out to the allocating authority, ie the LEA. If a mistake has been made then they may actually just offer you the place even though they are full, remember the 30 class size limit only applies to infants. Schools can allocate over the admission number.

If they still do not allocate but a mistake has been made, then you need to appeal.

It really DOES matter that others have been offered a place, as it is that which demonstrates that they have made a mistake and should be the main basis for your appeal. But you should also state your other reasons, especially regarding your other child.

How are they measuring distance? Sometimes this is complicated and difficult to determine. It may be most direct walking route, or it may have to be via a route lit by public street lighting. Some are even applying as the crow flies. You need to arm yourself with the precise criteria I think.

janinlondon - Yes, that's why it's important to get the LEA's own data.

Stringbean - just to let you know I rang this am and Bocca is right, they volunteered the info I was after ie. the last kid in was 1.02 miles away and we are 1.0561 miles away. They weren't prepared to disclose the breakdown of admittance - catchment, sibs in catchment, etc etc nor were they prepared to tell me if there was anyone applying who stood inbetween the 2 distances (was interested for waiting list purposes).

So if you get them to tell you this info and it is as you believe it to be, won't they say 'and the last kid in was X and you madame are X-1 - oh hang on there appears to have been a mistake made' - or am I too optimistic?

Stringbean - how did you get on?

Thought I should update you on what has happened today.

Dh went up to the junior school at 8am, expecting to find lots of parents there - and the place was deserted. He spoke to the head, who was astonished, instantly said 'He'll get a place - we have spaces', told him not to worry and she'd ring the Admissions Team. Ds's infant school takes 90 kids, with 99 in the junior's so, in practice, all the children transfer, with space for a few more who may move in late in the school year. Apparently the school noticed ds's name had been left off the interim list they get sent after the applications have closed, and requested the Admissions team that it was added, but this was never done.

We then went to the council HQ to speak to someone - anyone - about it. By the time we got there, the school had emailed and phoned, someone came out who apologised profusely and said they'd made a mistake. Apparently they'd treated ds's application as late - which is not the case, as I'd handed it in the week after the forms came out - so no idea what happened there. Aso, it seems there was a further administrative issue last week, resulting in some people with 'late' applications being sent the wrong school details.

So, in short, a very stressful weekend for nothing! We've been assured he has a place and an offer has been sent to us in today's post, so I will properly relax once I've seen it!

A huge thank you to all of you who've posted. I think one of the lessons learned from this one is to make sure I do an online application next time, so I know the form has been received at the other end!

PomsMum, I'm so sorry you didn't get the place you wanted. Is this an issue in terms of siblings? Regarding the waiting list question, you will probably get that information from the school. I think they need the responses back in a certain time and then they compile the W/L places after that. Wishing you lots of luck!

Oh that's good news

Stringbean - I'm glad for you - and intrigued that your LEA are so straightforward about rectifying mistakes as (unless there are some mistakes which are put right long before the appeal stage, which we don't see) ours relies on the appeals process for that.