Single Dad needs some help with N.London Primary Schools / Nursery Schools

[ThornAmongstTheRoses]

Hi Ladies....I am a widdowed dad of a gorgeous 2.5 year old boy, and about to contemplate moving out of my old house to make a fresh start in life and make space for someone else in my life...

Obviously a major concern is schools and I am keen to explore state schools options at least for Primary School.

I am contemplating Tufnell Park, Highbury & Islington, Dartmouth Park and possibly Highgate if I can find somewhere which is in my price range....650 - 850, but 850 is really my top end...

Now as with all things in life, this is not cut and dry.... My late wife was am Irish Catholic, whereas I personally am religiously challenged...especially in the context of how a woman can be taken from her child by cancer 4 weeks after having an emergency c-section....

My son has been baptised (along with his cousin in Ireland) and has a great Aunt who is a nun (the surviving one of three nuns in who were my late wifes aunts.)

Ok so the context is set, pretty strong religious catholic situation... From my limited knowledge and research it appears that the catholic schools perform really well...and so I would like to try get him into one of them.... Am I living in la la land...I guess I could handle the prospect of regular church attendance, with the little one....but I would feel a little bit of a hypocrit....

Obviously I would not be the only one....ie plenty other people there for the wrong reasons...but not sure if this would put me on the right side of things...

I know there are good non-religous schools ... I've heard of Yerbury Primary, being good but basically I would really like to get some solid views on options I have in the abovementioned areas...?

And how Catholic Schools really work....in terms of admissions policies etc...

Oh and excuse the ignorance generally about UK schools - I am not from these parts, not even this hemisphere....

Ok so many thanks in advance and I would appreciate any and all help anyone can provide.

I have experience of the schools in this area, Thorn, but I'm not going to go into details on a public message board. If you CAT me, I'm happy to dish the dirt off-board.

Thorn - there are lots of good primaries in the areas you mention. However, the catchment areas for some of the most (allegedly) desirable non-church schools are very small and they change from year to year. The risk is that you buy a property close to a specific school but then, depending on siblings getting priority and other factors, your dc still doesn't get a place because you are too far (in some cases this can be less than 200m!).

I think the best is to find a house in a street / area you like and that has a mix of both non-church and church schools. Tufnell Park, Dartmouth Park, Archway, Highgate are all good options that would work.

My child is at a catholic school and there are definitely children who have one or more parents of a different religion or no religion. As long as you are happy that your ds receives a religious education, I would expect your ds would be given a place.

Catholic schools which perform well do normally require church attendence. However, they also do have flexibility about their admissions criteria, and many schools do admit children on compassionate grounds. A catholic school would certainly give your son a grounding in the catholic faith and culture which you cannot give him. If I was on the board of governors, I would look at your son's admission favourably.

The best way forward would be to arrange an appointment to look around a catholic school and discuss everything that you have written with the head. If you decide to go forward with an application for a catholic school, you would also need a signature from your parish priest. You do not need to pretend to be religious, although the school may request you bring you son to mass.

Obviously Catholic schools are very religious. They are required to spend a significant part of the school week doing activities related to religious instruction. I can't remember if it is 10% or 20%, plus they follow the national curriculum in full. Therefore if you are an athiest, you may have a problem with your son coming home and telling you about Jesus and the bible. You need to consider this, before you apply for schools.

My dh is a lapsed catholic, and he is pleased that our dc are being educated as catholics because they can choose their own way later in life, but I know that other people have different views.

Can't help you too uch on schools although I believe St Josephs in Highgate is a good Catholic Primary. Also Our Lady of Muswell in Muswell Hill (if you've thought of there). But there are also other very good non-religious schools too.

Just wanted to let you know all those areas are great for bringing up a lo and I'm sure you'll find something that suits.

Highgate Primary is a good school, nice mixed, non religious, and there are lots of good schools in Muswell Hill area, but it's pricey.
IF you find a school you like, ask to have a look around, get hold of admissions criteria and make sure that you are going to be able to fit to them (if it is a Catholic school, for example
BUT if you have problems with the religious side of it, don't go for it! Try another good primary school instead so you don't have to feel like a hypocrite. You can then find a church that you like/feel comfortable with for your son.
If your son has good support at home, and it sounds like he has from you, he will be fine. you need to find a school YOU like and think will work for you.
Good luck

Just thought about this thread today as someone was talking about St Peter in Chains School in Crouch End.

Very very good, she said.

St Michaels in Highgate is an excellent school and lots of famous people send their kids there, seriously though, it's excellent. If you could move very slightly further NW then Brooklands in Hampstead Garden suburb is an excellent non religious option.

Rhodes Ave in Muswell Hill is excellent and takes children from the (slightly) cheaper n22 side of Muswell Hill. Plenty of houses around for 550-650 to 1m. You would also poss be eligble to try for Our Lady of Muswell RC.

We live very close to St Joseph's. It is a very good school, as is Highgate and St Michael's. DD attends Brookfield primary in Dartmouth Park which I think is very good too.

Yerbury and Eleanor Palmer are also good.

In terms of Catholic schools, they tend to take children from a wider catchment, so long as they are Catholic. We live virtually next door to St Joseph's, but DD wouldn't really have a chance of getting in since we're CofE.

In terms of moving to the area, is £850 your maximum budget per week or per month? If it's per month, then I honestly don't think you have much chance of renting anything for that rent in this area, unless you're willing to live in a one-bedroom flat with your DS.

Rents around here for a 2-bedroom place tend to start at a minimum of £300 per week for something not very nice, and go up to around £600 per week for top end properties.

Thornamongsttheroses - I was a governor at this school sometime ago and based on this, and having had a quick look at St Joseph's current admission arrangements for 2010 (see Islington council education website) I would say the following:

the governors have to apply their criteria - so you've got to help them to be able to do this (even if they have sympathy for your case they can't offer a place unless justified by their criteria;

the child is a baptised catholic but he is not currently from a "practising catholic family" - regular church attendance.

If the child did regularly attend mass I would say - based on the Diocese's admission's code (rcdow.org)- that your son would meet the practicising catholic criteria even if you were not yourself a catholic;

to strengthen your case I would go to see the Parish Priest, perhaps with a letter from your Aunt who is the nun; explain your situation; and ask if he would support your application on "pastoral grounds". He'd probably want to test you commitment to educating your child in a catholic school - but it would be quite possible that the priest would support the offer of a place on pastoral grounds - in other words not to punish your baptised son for the sins of his father;

if you did get a letter of pastoral support it would be up to the governing body admissions panel to decide whether they agreed with the parish priest (they probably would but you can't be certain)

They do have some non-Catholic families at St Josephs, though not sure whether they got in at Reception or through places becoming available later.

Agree that you would be quite likely to get supported for a place at a Catholic school on pastoral grounds as long as you got to know the priest and made the right kind of noises. Not just St Josephs -- most catholic schools operate like that ime, even at secondary level although there may be a bit less leeway at that level.

I am not sure it is about making the right noises.... rather, as I say, if there's no evidence that the child comes from a "practicising catholic family" then there's no possibility of getting a place because of "pastoral circumstances". The son will not get the latter without meeting the criteria.

I'm not a catholic but my DP is and we are looking at sending our DD (3yrs) to a Catholic school- you really need to attend mass every week, get to know the parish priest, nuns, priests, e.t.c because when you apply to the school you will need the parish priest to sign the form that you attend mass regularly and that you (or your child as in yours and my situation) will grow up as a practising catholic.
My partner has a very strong Irish decent aswell (2 aunty nuns, godmother a nun and parents attend mass regularly)!
Whatever you chose to do, good luck and it's a rat race what ever school you want to send your child to!!!

zanzibar -- in the parish/school where I was previously a governor (not StJ's but not far away), the priest's recommendation had absolute priority. If he recommended that a child be admitted 'for pastoral reasons' then that child got a place.

In many cases the circumstances included kids who came from catholic families but who didn't attend mass because the family were in such difficult circs that it wasn't a priority -- parental alcoholism/drug addiction, parent in prison, family breakup yadda yadda. I think family bereavement where the deceased parent was a catholic would def fall into this category, particularly if the surviving non-catholic parent was supportive of the child's catholic heritage.

I don't know how they work it at StJ's, but there are definitely muslim families in the school atm, and a CoE family as well, so it's clearly not unheard-of.

frogs - typically a pastoral circumstances reference from the priest would only be relevant if the applicant met the other criteria. It can change your position in the ranking it can't override the basic admission arrangements. But as you say it makes sense in the cases such as drug addiction etc. where, through no fault of the baptised child, he/she is not able to practice.

I also agree the GB would normally go along with the PP's reference but the GB admission panel (not the PP) are the ones who make the decision - it's an uncertainty that's all I am saying which the applicant would need to understand.

I feel your position as we went through all this in the last 2 years.

But I think if you aren't a Catholic, this is going to be tough. The "show" of Catholicism won't stop with admission to the school. It will permeate your whole life.

You are going to end up in a tangle of ongoing half-truths. To your son (who will question everything - all the time). To his teachers. To the priest. To his friend's parents, who will also become your friends. You will see these people nearly every day - at the school gates, at mass, at children's parties, at school events, at the PTA.

What if it gets out that you are not Catholic? The other children might not be too nice to him about it. Is it fair to put him in that position?

Whatever school teaches your child, your example is much more important. I think you will come to the conclusion that you need to be true to yourself.

We moved to St Albans from N London for this reason. We have good community state schools and reasonable commute to London. Herts seems to spend lots more on schools and children's facilities than London boroughs.

Hope this doesn't come across too preachy. It is only meant to help.

stephla- agree with you to an extent- but I dont hide the fact that I am not catholic and if thornamongsttheroses does'nt lie about his beliefs than it should'nt be too difficult. I am sure there will be some issues along the way- but I look at it as just a part of life!

Hi all....well really greatful for all the advise, opinion and suggestions....I may well have partially solved some of my problem as one of the serious contenders in my house hunt is 0.13 miles from Highgate Primary....

I looked at their last offsted report which was all grade 2's....but was done in 2006.... Does anyone have a more current view on how this school is performing....If this is a good school then I don't really have to go through this whole Catholic School hoop escapade.....

Although I may well have to entertain that to ensure I have some alternatives available...

Again thank you all....

Hi Thorn - yes Highgate Primary is a good school, I know a couple of families who send their kid(s) there and are pleased with it.

Hope you get the house you want!

I know one mum who had a place at St Michaels and took place at Highgate Primary as she liked it better. She's very happy with it. Also Colridge in Crouch End is great - and has a bigger catchment area as 4 class intake.

Thorn - I went to Highgate Primary!!!! mind you , I am in my (very early) 40s now so things change, but my brother and I were v happy there!!

If as you say you'd rather not go through, in your words, the "Catholic School hoop escapade....." then as others have said on other posts its probably best as well you don't take a place from a catholic who might appreciate it.

I have always heard good things about Highgate primary, but do check size of catchement to make sure your proposed house is in it.

Also you are on the edge of Islington in this area so you might want to look at Ashmount School. very recent, very good ofsted.

Highgate primary has a new head teacher, he was the deputy at Rhodes Avenue in Muswell Hill. I think he wants to keep the ethos of the school the same, but usually a new head is good for a school. I also hear good things and the people who go there seem to be happy, good luck with your search.